Justice.

[Arkacia]

Ha...courts...that's a good one. Now, I entirely believe in our justice system and that courts are a necessary part of society, but how can you honestly believe that courts deal with things well when murderers and rapists can live in jail and recieve food, entertainment, and lodging at cost to not the criminals but the taxpayers and then get out in a year or two because they "promise not to do it again?" For the sake of the victims in this world, I hope there is a God to do a little more punishment than that.

Oh yeah, this is kinda funny...Don't thnk I'm an anarchist or anything, or that I hate the Government...I plan on going to Law School and becoming a Lawyer someday. Funny, isn't it? But I'll be in Criminal Prosecution, of course. If your courts are only giving out a year or two for rapists and murderers, then you have a serious problem with your justice system. Australia is one of the softest nations on crime in the world, and our criminals get longer that that, much longer. I also think you have a bit of a messed up image of prisons. They are'nt luxury hotels, and inmates don't go into them by choice, and most do whatever they can to get out. If prisons were so great, don't you think all the homeless people would be committing crimes left right and centre, to get into them?

You're American are'nt you?
If so, your nation has some of the toughest laws, longest sentences and most repressive prisons in the world. Your nation also has the death penalty. I've seen a series of documentries that showed some of America's prisons, and all I can say about them is, I NEVER want to end up in one.

If you want a God to keep on torturing criminals after their death, then thats your business, but it sounds un-necessarily cruel to me, especially when Christians do go on and on about repentance and forgiveness.

[HinesDaMan]

It is true that America has very tough laws and courts and prisons...I would never want to end up there. But haven't you ever heard of parole or plea-bargaining? These bastardizations of "Justice" are what I have a problem with...

Unnecessarily cruel? What do you call murder, rape, and kidnapping? Kind? Give me a break..."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,"...let the punishment fit the crime.

[Mick]

I know this is a bit off topic but I just wanted to comment on the discussion of prisons. As for religion I think I have said enough, I would just be repeating myself;)

On the subject of prisons, I think the main thing about them is they take away the prisoners freedom. Sure there is the image of the rough people in there and the threat of being some guys "girlfriend", but they are not all like that. It depends on where the prison is, what level of security it is, and the type of criminals in there.

There are some people in prison who get on fine with the others or know the right people and they don't do anything in their life, just sit around watching TV. So going to prison is no big deal to them because they like having regular meals supplied and maybe even the company, who knows?

What I do know after speaking to a couple of people who have been in prison, is they are not as bad as they look. One of them had a bad experience with a guy harassing him but that was only occasionally. The other guy actually liked prison because he got fed well and met a few old friends in there, he even told me how easy it was to get drugs in there.

[Arkacia]

I've split these posts off from the religion thread, because they are off topic, but the discussion is interesting and topical enough to warrent this subject having a thread of its own.

HinesDaMan, I'm sorry that you find my distaste for torture hard to accept. If you think a criminal should be tortured in the afterlife, does that also mean you think they should be tortured in prison as well?

I'm not trying to make excuses for violent criminals, their acts disgust me, and in my opinion the worst offenders should be locked up and never released, but torture just makes the rest of us as bad as the criminals, and brings all of us down to their level.

You may be surprised to learn that I agree with you about parole and plea bargins. Parole should be abolished, and a prisoners reward for good behavior is getting out on time when their original sentence is finished. Any rule breaks in prison add time to the sentence. Plea bargins and "deals" should be straight out illegal.

[the_dude3]

It is true that America has very tough laws and courts and prisons...I would never want to end up there. But haven't you ever heard of parole or plea-bargaining? These bastardizations of "Justice" are what I have a problem with...

Unnecessarily cruel? What do you call murder, rape, and kidnapping? Kind? Give me a break..."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,"...let the punishment fit the crime.

Ok HinesDaMan, I'm a fellow believer too as you can see with my thread regarding evolution or creation. As a fellow believer, I have to say that Christ was all about forgiveness and not about punishment of people that have done wrong things. Any crime against Him that has been committed he will deal with, but any sin to God or Christ (same thing), is just as bad as any other. Maybe the punishments in the judicial system aren't just enough but still. I mean what if they DID mean it when they said they weren't going to do it again? Oh yeah, and something gets me really confused here with catholicism. Why is it that they baptize people at birth? No where in the Bible have i seen that that HAS to be done. what I know is that you should get baptized when you truly accept Christ into your heart and when you are at a point in your life where you are going to devote your life to him, not when you don't know what's going on. Sorry for being off topic, but I just had to say something.

[HinesDaMan]

HinesDaMan, I'm sorry that you find my distaste for torture hard to accept. If you think a criminal should be tortured in the afterlife, does that also mean you think they should be tortured in prison as well?

Torture is a very loose and complex concept...do I think that murderers and rapists should be tied to a wall and whipped, or have nails driven into their skin? No, not at all, I find that horrendous and stupid...do I think that murderers and rapists should be put to death? Yes, wholeheartedly. Death is the ultimate punishment, and as such, if someone knows that they might be put to death for a specific crime then chances are the person probably will not do it. And Arkacia...I do not people should be quote "tortured in the afterlife"...I just think that they should not be given the reward of eternal life in Heaven. If life in Hell involves torture or not then so-be-it. They do not deserve a spot amongst the righteous.

[Mick]

I think the death penalty should be used for murderers, if they are willing to take someones life they don't deserve theirs. Having said this they should be proven without a doubt guilty before any execution. There can be false covictions, this was proven when they started DNA testing prisoners to go back and check it with their crime scene evidence. I forget the exact details but I do remember some prisoners being pardoned and released thanks to DNA testing.
As for rapists, I feel very strongly about this having done a bit of research on the subject because I had a friend who was raped when she was young. I think rapists should have their genitals cut off because rape victims have to live with the psychological damage for the rest of their lives. So why shouldn't the rapist suffer the same fate. It affects most victims in a very bad way, it is a disgusting crime committed by desparate evil people.

[HinesDaMan]

Yikes...a little violent, but fitting I suppose. I don't really condone that action but I do believe that the Death Penalty should be used more often

[Every1sHero]

The death penalty...this is a great idea, but a terrible practice. INNOCENTS are killed on death row, you know this right? And you base your support for this practice on the bible? Did you ever read the New Testament? Did Jesus not say "Vengeance is Mine?" Do some research on your beliefs before trying to preach to others.

[HinesDaMan]

OK, you wanna go toe to toe with me on the bible? Boy, you don't know who you're messing with.

Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth a man shall surely be put to death"...I'd say that puts it pretty clear, doesn't it? But, in anticipation of your response, I've got some more ammo...

Genesis 9:6 "And whoso sheddeth a man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God may deem a man." Straight from the mouth of God again...

As far as the New Testament goes, you are correct; Jesus did in fact say "Vengeance is Mine." But it did not mean "let them go unpunished," no, He meant it to say that the punishment must adhere to the way the God set forth in the Old Testament. It is you, Hero, who needs to do his research.

[Every1sHero]

You think you know the Bible well? Well, too bad that has nothing to do with our argument.

The argument on this thread is justice, not "quote bible verses." My point is simply this: Capital Punishment is a gross and ineffective punishment, and should be made unconstitutional for being cruel and unusual.

[HinesDaMan]

HAHAHAH! Are you serious? If I recall correctly, it was YOU, Hero, who brought up the bible!

Capital Punishment is very far from cruel and unusual. In fact, lethal injection is a much more preferable way to die (in my opinion) than getting gang-raped and beaten with a crude weapon in prison. Now that would suck. Quit the hypocrisy and get a real argument.

[Every1sHero]

A violent death in prison is not guaranteed, Hines, and if it does happen, then at least it is not state-sponsored murder. I think that dying prematurely would suck, Hines, not just a violent death.

[Arkacia]

Thats enough of the flameing from both of you :mad:

The debate is good, but keep the personal stuff out of it please.

[HinesDaMan]

Sorry Arkacia.:(

Hero: State-sponsored murder? Are you kidding? How can you call the death penalty "State-Sponsored Murder" and not call life imprisonment "State-Sponsored Torture?" It's all in the eye of the beholder, Hero, and to an extremely humanitarian person, Prison itself is probably a form of torture. My point is, you cannot make generalizations just because they sound good for your argument.

BTW...dying would suck, Hero.

[Every1sHero]

Sorry, Arkacia. :(

Look, here's the deal. Without pointing out the obvious holes in your argument, let me just say one thing before I retire from this debate. Arguing is all about generalizations; it's just picking the correct ones and using them at the right time that determines who wins and who doesn't.

I enjoyed this debate, and look forward to more rivalry in the future, Hines.

[kid]

There is still one crime that can be punishable by death in Australia, Can anyone tell me what it is?

[HinesDaMan]

My guess would be Treason, but I'm no Aussie, so I'm not 100% on that

[Arkacia]

There is still one crime that can be punishable by death in Australia, Can anyone tell me what it is?
The death penalty has been abolished in Australia so even if there is a crime left on the books that can be punished by it (and I suspect it has something to do with the armed forces, desertion perhaps) no-one will ever be sentenced to death even if convicted of it.

[yarnellcg17]

True..and even here in the US.. you won't find any one convicted of treason put to death.. 1953 Julius and Ethel Rosenberg..but I do not believe what they did really should have resulted in the death penalty for them..todays standards wouldn't have allowed for it.. as times have changed and laws and courts shift gears all the time..

[JsWoman]

How does everyone know all this useless, and sometimes not so useless, trivia? Most of these questions are well beyond my knowledge.