Evolution or Creation??

[the_dude3]

Give reasons to why you either believe in evolution or creation. I know this is a very touchy subject so give the best you got to prove either of the two.

[Arkacia]

I'm going to admit straight out that I'm an atheist, and don't believe in the existance of any Gods, Godesses or supreme beings of any kind. As a result of that, I also don't believe heaven or hell exist, and that there is any truth to the creation story.

Having said that, I also know that evolution, which I do believe in, is only a theory, and there is no definate, concrete proof of that either, but the evidence we do have, fossil records, carbon dating, the relationship between animal species etc, do lead me to give it a lot more credence than creation. I just can't get my head around the idea that a super being got bored one day, and decided to create a universe. Big bang is'nt perfectly explained either, but again, makes more sense to me.

[the_dude3]

Ok... here we go I'm going to warn you this will be long so just bare with me here.

Starting off we have fossil records... Ok the fossils if anything prove that there is a God and he exists. You know the so-called "neanderthals" that supposedly lived what 20,000 years ago? Well there were actually people in the Bible that lived to be 900 years old. Did you know that when you get older that the back of your head actually starts to pop out making your head look bigger and that the bone around the area where your eyebrow is starts to actually grow out? You know what i'm getting at. Yes the "neanderthals" that were thought to be the evolutionary link from apes to humans aren't exactly what you might have thought they were. Also I don't know if you know this or not but it does say in the Bible that dinosaurs actually existed along side human beings at one time. This period would have been before the flood. You know, where Noah had to build the ark and put 2 of every animal on the ark. Well what a good way to wipe out the dinosaurs!! Also, you know how evolution says that we are getting bigger, stronger, faster and smarter? In the Bible, Genesis 6:4 says, "there were giants in those days" refering to the period before Christ came. Ok now there have been fossil findings of burial pits with as many as 50 people all of which were around 11 feet tall. 11 FEET TALL!! There was also a person I believe to have found a femur bone that was 37'' tall!! I saw a picture of it and the guy holding it had to prop it up on his shoulders. You wonder how Egyptians carried those huge slabs of stone around. Just get 2 of those guys and you're set. Also the Smithsonian has been known to hide these fossils because it would go against evolution's standards.

Alright now onto carbon dating...
Carbon dating is so off I can't even describe it so i will tell you. Scientists have carbon dated fresh seal skins that were supposedly 300 years old and they have also dated a snail shell that too was fresh and said that it was 1,000 years old. Aye yaye yaye. But anyway, the carbon dating method (you probably know) is based on how long it takes carbon-14 to decay back into nitrogen-14 since scientists supposedly know that it runs at a constant half-life rate of about 5,700 years. First of all they would have to have been there for 5,700 years to truly know that carbon-14 decayed at that specific rate. Second this method has only been around for what, maybe 100-50 years i could imagine no longer than that. Thirdly scientists say that anything beyond 50,000 years is inaccurate anyway, so the whole mumbo jumbo about the Earth being 4.6 billion years is well, hate to break it to you but false. In fact, anything containing carbon-14 is proof that it isn't billions of years old. What makes this method even more yummy, warm, and gooey on the inside is that some plants discriminate against carbon-14 and therefore test older than they actually are. Also, the Genesis flood would have greatly upset the carbon balance. The flood buried a huge amount of carbon, which became coal, oil, etc., lowering the total carbon-12 in the biosphere (including the atmosphere—plants regrowing after the flood absorb CO2, which is not replaced by the decay of the buried vegetation). Total carbon-14 is also proportionately lowered at this time, but whereas no terrestrial process generates any more carbon-12, carbon-14 is continually being produced, and at a rate which does not depend on carbon levels (it comes from nitrogen). Therefore, the carbon-14/carbon-12 ratio in plants/animals/the atmosphere before the flood had to be lower than what it is now, making those silly fossils look like they are way older than they actually are.

As for the relationship between animal species, well I don't see any resemblences. I mean if you're talking about missing links and such, nobody has found anything on that sort of thing. Besides what are the chances of the DNA in fish or whatever was first to mutate it self into lungs that can breathe air. You have the cells, the tissues, the systems within the fish, they'd all have to change within one generation of fish. Not very likely huh? And if you want to get even more complex, just look at your eye. Even the founder of evolution says that with the billions of parts to the eye the likeliness of something just happening over time seems ridiculous. Those weren't his exact words, but pretty close to it.

Yeah the big bang, i don't know about that one. I heard that since einstein couldn't explain how everything was all started, he just made it up, like a joke, except not funny. How do you take nothing and make it into something? You can't right? Well that's what this theory is all about. you know when you leave your room sit? It gets dirty right? Also if you have a building doesn't it prove that there was a builder? Because you can't let something like crap sit for 1,000,000 years and hope it turns into gold by chance can you? No. Because it isn't possible. Same concept applies with God. If there is an Earth, doesn't that mean that there is a creator? When it sits and gets dirty who do think cleans it up?

Oh yeah also God wasn't bored one day and said "i think i'll just make this and see what happens." No you need to read the bible before you can say anything about that. If you were to know the extent in which he loves everyone, you'd probably believe too. if he truly thought that then he would have wiped us out one day because he could, but no he loves everyone of his creations, even if they don't accept him.

[pollovivo]

Personally, I've been converging the theories... science and religion may very well go hand in hand on this subject.

... to spice things up a bit more, what about reincarnation?

[the_dude3]

Ok pollovivo, I have something for you too. Check it. It's an echo I found about reincarnation that tells you why reincarnation just ain't true. It is a little long, so yeah...

"(1) Reincarnation can't be true because it is numerically impossible.

If there is one soul per person, and if the population of the world is increasing (which it is), where are all these new souls coming from? In other words, the population has more than doubled from around two billion at the turn of the century to over 5 billion today. If each of these 5 billion souls have lived at least ONE past life, where did the over 3 billion souls come from which did not exist before 1900 AD ? It seems there are several possible solutions to this problem:

(A) These new souls are coming from animals or inanimate matter.

(B) These new souls are coming from other planets (Shirley Maclaine has offered this as a solution I have heard), ETs and stuff.

(C) New souls come out of "thin air" or are somehow created by God or perhaps have always existed so they are actually "old" souls.

(D) or there are people with several souls -- perhaps 3 or more.

Since the standard definition of reincarnation involves one soul per person, that rules out option (D). Now if you accept the classic Hindu concept of reincarnation -- the idea that you could come back as a cockroach if you lived a really bad life -- then option (A) is a possible solution. If you are nuts, then option (B) is possible.

Again, if the standard definition of reincarnation holds true, new souls are not created out of thin air, but already exist and are just taking on new lives and new bodies. So option (C) is out.

The Catholic concept is that souls are indeed created immediately by God (see the Catechism paragraph 366). One soul and one body (Mt 10:28).

(2) Reincarnation is not true because it contradicts the Resurrection.

To quote some Bible, "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgement" (Heb 9:27) is probably a text you've heard. BTW, there are alleged supports for reincarnation in the Bible and I am familiar with them (none of them actually supports reincarnation).

The teaching of the resurrection of the dead is one life, one soul, one body. There will not be multiple bodies for one soul which is what reincarnation requires. The body is not something to be discarded and forgotten but will be reunited with the soul at the final judgment.

Thus, reincarnation contradicts the historical Christian teaching and Bible concept of the resurrection of the dead.

Now I realize there have been some who have tried to show they are compatible, such as Anglican priest Geddes MacGregor who has a couple of books on the subject of Christianity and reincarnation. A good book that answers his arguments is The Reincarnation Sensation by Norm Geisler and J. Yutaka Amano (Tyndale House, 1986).

(3) Reincarnation is not true because it simply makes no sense.

It makes no sense because the reason we live further lives is to supposedly improve upon and do restitution for what wrong we did in our prior lives. But who remembers their prior lives? I have no conscious memory of any prior lives. So how in the world am I supposed to improve upon what I did if I can't remember what I did?

Now I realize some people claim to remember their prior lives through various techniques, particularly hypnosis. But it has been documented that hypnosis is notoriously unreliable. We have people claiming everything under hypnosis -- from UFO abductions, to Satanic ritual abuse, to prior lives. Is all of this stuff true?

A good recent book on hypnotherapy written from a skeptical psychologist point of view is Robert Baker, They Call It Hypnosis (Prometheus Books, 1990). I believe that is the correct title.

(4) Reincarnation is not true because it perpetuates the problem of evil.

Contrary to what you said about karma and reincarnation being just, the concepts are unjust because evil is perpetuated and there is no forgiveness. To quote what you wrote --

PC> To me, the ideas of karma and reincarnation seemed more just. If God is just, then the punishment should fit the crime.

Therefore, if I am a murderer in this life, does not the law of karma require that I must come back as the victim of a murder?

If I am a wife beater in this life, don't I have to come back as a woman who is beaten by her husband (or something equivalent to have "justice" done to me) ? Each crime committed in this life requires the perpetrator to return in a future life to have the same thing done to him or her!

Do you see how evil is perpetuated? There is no forgiveness here. That's why the Hindus refer to this as "the wheel of reincarnation" since there is no getting off. It is a hopeless cycle."

OK now that you've seen that pollovivo, tell me about why you believe science and religion go hand in hand or rather what you converge between the two theories. And Arkacia, please give some sort of reason or reasons as to why evolution is a better thing to believe in other than "it makes more sense to me."

[Arkacia]

I don't believe in God, and never will, so I don't believe in creation. Pure and simple.

I don't need to explain why it make more sense to me, in any other way than that the creation story is, to me, a myth, a story, with no basis in fact. Evolution is all around me, I can see it, touch it, go to a museum and study it, though I know you feel exactly the same way about creation, so we will never come to agreement on this subject, and the debate will rage on, as it has since Darwin first proposed his theory.

You do believe in God, and the bible, so your opinions are the complete opposite to mine. Whether we believe in creation or evolution has a lot to do, if not everything to do, with whether we believe in a supreme being or not.

[the_dude3]

Arkacia what in the world are you saying there is no basis to creation in fact? There is plenty of scientific evidence out there to prove evolution to be wrong and I have only given you a taste of it. Not yet have I seen or heard one convincing thing from anybody about this subject. Tell me something!!! Pick my brain in anyway possible, just don't sit there and say that it makes more sense to you. Tell me why!!! Please, I'm dying to know.

I don't know how you can see evolution in nature or in anything for that matter. The chances are incomprehensible for evolution to happen, the so-called facts that this theory is based upon are ridiculous, the methods used to determine how long something has been dead or buried beneath rock aren't even useful, even Darwin thought that evolution was highly improbable, and yet you still believe. I don't know about that one. Besides that, have you ever tried to live your life according to the Bible? It's nearly impossible, ever wonder why? When you try to live your life like that it becomes a lot better. You actually have a life of purpose and meaning rather than just going out and living it. Have you ever tried praying either? Probably not huh? Well i guarantee you that if you ask God to reveal himself in your life that he will do so in an unspeakable manner. Just try it, please.

[Arkacia]

The simple basis for my belief in evolution is that God does not exist.

Why would I believe in creation by some super being I don't believe exists?
I know the evolution theory has holes, and have admitted that in every post, but it still makes more sense to me than believing in a God.

I have no intention of praying because I don't believe there is anyone or anything up there listening.

One thing we need to get straight, I am an athiest, that means that I don't believe in any form of supreme beings, not now, not ever.

[2xGuest426]

Starting off we have fossil records... Ok the fossils if anything prove that there is a God and he exists. You know the so-called "neanderthals" that supposedly lived what 20,000 years ago? Well there were actually people in the Bible that lived to be 900 years old. Did you know that when you get older that the back of your head actually starts to pop out making your head look bigger and that the bone around the area where your eyebrow is starts to actually grow out?

First you tell us what happens when one lives long enough, but do not tell how you found this out...


....
First of all they would have to have been there for 5,700 years to truly know that carbon-14 decayed at that specific rate. Second this method has only been around for what, maybe 100-50 years i could imagine no longer than that. Thirdly scientists say that anything beyond 50,000 years is inaccurate anyway, so the whole mumbo jumbo about the Earth being 4.6 billion years is well, hate to break it to you but false.



Next you'll accuse someone doing conclusions that they cant prove accurately enough 'cause people do not live long enough to see it...

In fact, how can you appeal in fact that people do not live long enough to prove some scientific thing, when all what you believe in is only written in a dead old book, by unkonown authors? Sorry to say, but that's ridiculous IMO.

IMHO the methods to measure decaying of C-14 are much more accurate, than methods to calculate how living tissue developes... And methods to measure decaying of C-14 are MUCH more accurate, than methods to measure if 2000 years old book, largely written based on tales is true.



This period would have been before the flood. You know, where Noah had to build the ark and put 2 of every animal on the ark. Well what a good way to wipe out the dinosaurs!!


Man, listen to yourself. If you deny evolution, explain me how the heck one man could've collected two of every animals, and fit them & their food etc into an ark? You use science to try to disprove scientific facts, and at same time you believe in this kind of tales, and even try to use these as a "source data" in your logical reasoning... Do you know, that if the starting assumption in your deduction is wrong, it means you're screwed. So please base your conclusions on a bit more solid rock...


Also, you know how evolution says that we are getting bigger, stronger, faster and smarter? In the Bible, Genesis 6:4 says, "there were giants in those days" refering to the period before Christ came. Ok now there have been fossil findings of burial pits with as many as 50 people all of which were around 11 feet tall. 11 FEET TALL!! There was also a person I believe to have found a femur bone that was 37'' tall!! I saw a picture of it and the guy holding it had to prop it up on his shoulders. You wonder how Egyptians carried those huge slabs of stone around. Just get 2 of those guys and you're set. Also the Smithsonian has been known to hide these fossils because it would go against evolution's standards.


I know nothing of this, so I'm not going to start arguing with you about this :) But to me whole thing sounds... ridiculous. I wish you could show us the source of these facts? (I just haven't heard of these findings :) )


As for the relationship between animal species, well I don't see any resemblences. I mean if you're talking about missing links and such, nobody has found anything on that sort of thing. Besides what are the chances of the DNA in fish or whatever was first to mutate it self into lungs that can breathe air. You have the cells, the tissues, the systems within the fish, they'd all have to change within one generation of fish. Not very likely huh? And if you want to get even more complex, just look at your eye. Even the founder of evolution says that with the billions of parts to the eye the likeliness of something just happening over time seems ridiculous. Those weren't his exact words, but pretty close to it.


Yes, your point is valid. It is really unlikely. But how large is the universe? How many similair planets here is? Or.. How many similair planets, except the fact that no life was born on them, or if there were, it has not evolved like us? I know this does not prove a thing, but since I (like Archie) do not believe in creation, and we anyways are here, then there must be some reason... For me evolution theory is fine, unless I'll find a better modell how things went. After all, I could as well believe in old Finnish tales about large bird whose egg earth is, if I thought it was more likely than evolution..

All scientific theories are just models. And the great thing in scientific modells is, that if we find out some modell that describes world better, we can replace old modell. Or if we find some evidence that contradicts the modell, then we can fix it. Religion we cant fix. If ark story sounds ridiculous / impossible, we cannot just erase it and keep taking everything else as absolute truth. We cant just take a pencil, and add a 100 000 relatives of Noah, who all built arks to fit all the rest animals... That's why religion should never be mixed with science IMO. Religion is all about believing, not about proving. Science is all about doubting and proving...


Yeah the big bang, i don't know about that one. I heard that since einstein couldn't explain how everything was all started, he just made it up, like a joke, except not funny. How do you take nothing and make it into something? You can't right? Well that's what this theory is all about. you know when you leave your room sit? It gets dirty right? Also if you have a building doesn't it prove that there was a builder? Because you can't let something like crap sit for 1,000,000 years and hope it turns into gold by chance can you? No. Because it isn't possible. Same concept applies with God. If there is an Earth, doesn't that mean that there is a creator? When it sits and gets dirty who do think cleans it up?


AFAIK Einstein did believe in god. AFAIR God was the main reason why Einstin did not want to accept quantum physics at first. It is believed he said: "God does not play dice", when he was criticizing Heisenbergs uncertainity theory. (I'm not 100% sure though).

And why big bang? It is not just made out of nothing. AFAIK theory (modell) of bigbang has been made to explain (to simulate, modell, what's the right word in english) expansion of the space. Or perhaps it is more correct to say that it's been made to explain why galaksies stars and all, seem to go away from each others. It looks like something has made all the matter to start getting away from some point.. And a good way to modell it, is to do it with explosion. I mean movement of galaksies etc. seems to fit well on theory, that it all started from one point, which exploded...

See, I do not say the evolution (or other scientific theories) is the whole truth. But it seems to be the best modell to explain why things are like they are today. Best way at least for me.

[the_dude3]

To start off with this I got my facts from www.creationevidence.org and the people who studied some of the things dealing with that website. yeah so dont think i just pulled all this out of my butt because I wouldn't even be putting up a fight if I didn't know these things and I'm sorry for not informing you of my sources...

Ok yeah i admit the part about actually living 5700 years to prove it thing is a bad arguement. What i should have said was that they haven't studied it long enough to know if there are any changes in the rate of decay of C14.

The authors of the books of the Bible ARE known. Dude, the names are written right on the beginnings of the different books in most of it. The other authors names you have to find by actually reading the Bible. I couldn't tell you all of them because I'm just starting to get into it. But what I do know is that the apostle John wrote Revelation and Moses wrote the first 3-5 books I can't remember, but it's in that range or something like that But I'm certain of Revelation though. By the way the Bible is definitely NOT dead and old. You'd think by now if all these thing about God and stuff were truly false, that it would have been disposed of by now and I'm not saying since the Koran has been around that it's true as well, I'm saying the Bible is certainly not dead and old. It's alive and still young (I know that sounded corny but it's true).

Now there are other reasons besides what science has to prove to me that the bible is true. There are certain prophecies in the Bible that tell of the coming end times. you know when Jesus is going to return and bring all the Christians into heaven in the blink of an eye (a.k.a. the Rapture). There are quite a few that pertain to our day and age. I know too that some people may say," Well these prophecies are so vague that... blah blah blah" you know what i'm getting at. Anyway, I've heard from my pastors and youth leaders and fellow church goers and so many other Christians that well these prophecies that i will tell you about have come true. I don't know exactly where they are in the Bible but i could find out for you if you wanted me too.
Ok. 1. israel will become a nation (which happened in 1948 i believe)
2. people will be traveling all over the place. (cars, planes, things with engines)
3.There will be a great increase in knowledge. (look where we have gone in the past 100 years compared to the rest of history)
4. There will be more natural disasters. ( the 3 hurricanes in what 2-3 weeks in Florida and the huge tsunami over in the Middle East not too long ago)
There are other prophecies too that are actually quoted from the bible and related to current news @ www.prophecyfulfillment.com

Ok. About Noah... There was this video or a series of videos done by one of the guys related to the creation evidence website. I forgot his name, but this guy goes all over the place and has these public debates on why evolution is wrong. He's pretty good too. Just the movie convinced me, but anyway, in the video he said that the government of Turkey has claimed to have found Noah's skeleton and he was 12 feet tall. That's how he built the Ark and got the animals in. And just imagine his kids!!! Oh yeah, just so you know i'm not "screwed."Look who's talking, evolution has more holes than you can count. How else are you going to prove the bible to someone who believes in science? By disproving it with science that's how.

Religion is about doubting and proving as well. What the heck are you talking about? Evolution has to do a lot with faith anyway look at you, you even admit there's holes in evolution, and yet you still believe, that requires lots of faith. If you believe in evolution you have faith in it, that's why you believe in it. Besides that, it took Noah a long time to build that Ark in the first place, I'm pretty sure it was around 100 years or so.

Ok about the big bang what i meant to say was that where did the matter that exploded come from? What created it? At least with God you can say that he did it all. What then created the matter before that matter? I twould be a never ending cycle of what before what. With God, he always was, is, and forever will be. It's hard to comprehend, as a matter of fact you can't even comprehend it, that's why you dont believe, because you cant understand. Just because you can't understand it, doesnt mean that you cant believe in it.

And i also thought that scientists said that space is infinite, so what point would it expand on if it were infinite?

Oh yeah by the way, what's AFAIK and AFAIR? Didn't quite get that one.

[pollovivo]

the_dude3: Ok now there have been fossil findings of burial pits with as many as 50 people all of which were around 11 feet tall. 11 FEET TALL!!

Isn't that the height of a full grown polar bear? :confused:

Also they don't use carbon-dating to find the age of the earth.

AFAIK - As far as I know
AFAIR - As far as I've read (I'm guessing on this one actually... :D)

[zaqhyb]

my belief is that something had to start the universe. I mean how did this all come to be. If there is an all powerful god then what created him ( or her) and what was the start. How did this whole thing start. I mean like if you think about it are we just a thing of imagenation. I mean it is possible like that of where does the universe end. And if it ends some where whats on the other side of that. Right. Sorry i got a bit of topic but these things all have to do with that question. I do not believe in god. And if im wrong and there is a god then sorry but i need some proof that god himself exists.

[the_dude3]

If people don't use carbon dating to find the age of the earth, then what DO they use to do it? But thanx for the tips on AFAIK or whatever pollovivo.

As for you zaqyhb the Bible says that God always was, is, and forever will be making him around before time and everywhere. I know you won't be able to comprehend it, because no one can. God was always around and will always be around. Nothing can destroy him or do anything to him because he's all powerful, nothing! Can you imagine that? Someone who's invincible, has more power than anyone can handle, and he cares for us so much. Have you ever seen the movie The Passion of the Christ? That's only a taste of how much he cares for us. Jesus did that for us. He was God's only son and he gave his life for us. He is also all-forgiving and which is the beauty of knowing someone will ALWAYS be there for you no matter what happens in your life. We are certainly not imagination because what would be the point of being able to imagine things if you were in fact imagination? Don't know about the end of the universe, so i can't help you there. If you want to know there's a God (and trust me on this one I did it and it happened to me too), just pray to God. Pick a time, doesn't matter, before you go to bed or even just pray it in your head because he can hear everything. He knows everything and he knows your heart and if you truly desire to know what's out there, then you seek him and he willl find you, I guarantee it. Just ask God in your prayer to reveal himself to you and he will. I am going to tell you now that if you get involved with the Lord, your whole life will change, but for the better. You feel so much better with a life of meaning and purpose. He will help you with whatever you want him to. All you have to do is pray. I cannot express the amount of thanks that I have for Him and I hope that one day you will too.

[Mick]

I believe in evolution not creation because evolution has far more evidence to back it up and I think it is far more credible. I do not believe there is a God and probably never will.

I think some religions are just a way for people to deal with their fear of death. They want to believe that when they die, they will float up to heaven, be greeted by God at the pearly gates and reunited with their dead relatives and friends. Because of this wonderful fantasy, people are so eager to believe that it does not take much to convince them.
He is also all-forgiving and which is the beauty of knowing someone will ALWAYS be there for you no matter what happens in your life.
Well if this is true then why do religious people spend so much time reading the bible and going to church(or praying, worshipping,etc). If he is all-forgiving no matter what happens, why don't people just get on with their lives, then when they are at death's door, they can say "Please forgive me for ignoring you all my life, now i'm nearly dead I will believe in you, so I can get into heaven". That would be a lot easier I reckon

Anyway that's my opinion because i'm not religious, though I heard a funny statistic the other day on the radio. It was claimed that there was a tiny possibility that we are simply a computer game of another dimension. What it means is that we have simulations on computer for lots of things so what if someone or something had a computer so powerful that it was running a huge game we know as The Universe.

It might seem impossible to comprehend a program so big but just look back when computers were first invented. The creators then had no idea what would be achieved in say 50 years time, sure there were dreams about Artificial Intelligence in computers but these were only dreams. They didn't know if it was possible and we still don't know for sure now though we are certainly a lot closer to it now.

So if we can't predict exactly what our limit will be with technology, then who can say for certain that we are not just a game run by some highly advanced being, maybe that is God. If that is true we must all hope he is not using windows or we may crash and burn!

[pollovivo]

Well the half life of carbon is about 5700 years (I believe) but you don't need to wait that long to see that... it's all about the mathematics and the precision of your instruments. The life span of the Earth can be determined through fairly similar methods, but using other elements and by analyzing the rock layers. Many of the world's rocks are over turned by plate tectonics, but rocks have been found that have been dated to circa 3.7 billion years +...

[zaqhyb]

well the_dude3 it is not that i can't comphend it it is just that if you think about it is really possible for something like that to be really. Cause there is always a start to something no matter what it is.

[phantomullet]

Well if this is true then why do religious people spend so much time reading the bible and going to church(or praying, worshipping,etc). If he is all-forgiving no matter what happens, why don't people just get on with their lives, then when they are at death's door, they can say "Please forgive me for ignoring you all my life, now i'm nearly dead I will believe in you, so I can get into heaven". That would be a lot easier I reckon
That would actually work but when you ask for forgiveness, you would have to be 100% sincere about it. If this is something that you already predetermined when you were younger and wanted to live your life the way you want to instead of how God wants you to, you probably wouldn't be sincere about it. If you actually were to want to ask for forgiveness and develope a personal relation with Christ, then you wouldn't put it off and doing sowould make it artificial. God knows deep down what is in your heart.
As for the topic of evolution or creation, I believe that a God would have to come into play somewhere. I just can't imagine that everything is just happened from sheer luck. Evolution and every other pure "logical" theories of how the earth and humans came to be all have too many holes. This is why I have to believe that there is no logical way to prove the theories, so there must be something extraordinary. We can all argue all we want, but when it comes down to it, the only sure way to prove one or the other is to either meet someone really friggin old with a heck of a memory or invent a time machine. I know that there is a God because I have a personal relation with Christ, which is why creation makes more sense to me.

[Arkacia]

I found this site this morning, thanks to a link on another site, and feel this part of it would add to this thread. It may help those who don't accept evolution understand why most of us do, and explains things a heck of a lot better than I could.

Site concerned (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm)

The core argument in intelligent design is the fact that evolutionary biologists can't yet fully explain all the features of life; therefore they claim that life must have been designed by some intelligent being. This is the old “god of the gaps” argument, and it is logically and historically flawed. It's logically flawed because it's based on a lack of knowledge — explaining these gaps in knowledge by invoking the magic of an unknown (perhaps supernatural) being. Like all “god of the gaps” arguments, this is not falsifiable, can't even be tested, and says nothing about the moral qualities of this unknown being, god, or gods. It's historically flawed because science has shown excellent progress in explaining the world around us, and there is nothing to show that evolutionary biology should be abandoned simply because it has not yet explained the origins of every single process of life. Because biochemical processes don't leave behind fossils, it's not as easy to explain their origins as it is for bone structures that do fossilize. However, evolutionary biologists are making excellent progress in understanding the processes and origins of the biochemistry of life.Life is a process — not a design. It requires an explanation — not an intelligent designer. This explanation is the fact and theory of evolution. “Evolution” simply means change over time. It’s a fact that enormous changes to life on Earth have occurred. The 3.5 billion year fossil record is clear and unambiguous on this. The theory of evolution explains the processes that caused these changes

The evidence for evolution of life is overwhelming and conclusive. This evidence is not just in the fossils, but also in the the body parts and genes of almost every living thing. If you have any doubts, take a little time to learn the theory of evolution, then spend a few hours in any natural history museum or public library. If your mind is at all open, you will see the evidence. Remember, ignorance of how evolution works is no argument against it. The basic theory of evolution is completely solid, and will continue to be updated as we learn more about the complex history of life.

You don't even need to go to a natural history museum or library to see evidence for evolution; our own bodies have many signs of our evolutionary heritage. When we get goose bumps, our bodies are trying to keep warm by raising hairs that no longer help. The ability to wiggle ears is of no use for us, but not for some distant ancestors. We also have many useless, vestigial organs such as nipples on males, the appendix and the tailbone, which is just a holdover from when our primate ancestors actually had tails millions of years ago.

In fact, just about every cell in our bodies contains the evidence of our evolutionary origins. The basic process of life on Earth is so common that we share about 50% of our genes with carrots, and more than 98% of our genes with chimpanzees. Here are some useful biological facts: .We get an exact copy of the mitochondria in each cell from our mother, almost every time.
Every male gets an exact copy of his Y chromosome from his father, almost every time.
<li>Both the mitochondria and Y chromosomes slowly mutate over time at known rates.

With this knowledge, geneticists can estimate how recently any two of us shared a common female ancestor, or any two males shared a common male ancestor. Using this information and other data, the evidence strongly points to the claim that most or all of us are descended from a group of Africans that started migrating about 100,000 years ago. The faults in the design of the human eye, especially, show its evolutionary origins. [Show eye diagram of retina (http://www.eyedesignbook.com/ch3/fig3-56aBGre.gif).] When we study the retina at the back of the eye, we can see that the cell layers are backwards. Light has to travel through seven layers of cells before reaching the light sensing cells. Then the signals go back through these layers to the nerves on the inside surface. A truly intelligent designer could have done better than the human eye. In fact, evolution did a better job with the eyes of the octopus and squid, which have the light sensing cells on the surface, where they should be.

Let me address a common example that creationists use. [Show general eye diagram (http://www.nei.nih.gov/health/eyediagram/index.asp).] “Look at the wonderful design of the human eye,” they say. “Surely this design could not have happened by chance. It must be that God did it.” Actually, it did happen by chance — countless little chance events of changes in the gene pool over millions of generations, all controlled by the harsh realities of natural selection and survival of the fittest. While the initial changes in the gene pool were chance events, survival of the fittest is obviously not random. This is the heart of the basic theory of evolution; individuals can pass their genes and characteristics on to their offspring. If a gene makes an individual more likely to have offspring that survive, its offspring that carry that gene will be more likely to have offspring that survive. In effect, species are designed to fit their environment. The designer is the blind process of evolution, however, not some god or gods.

You’ve probably heard people say that evolution is “only a theory.” It’s important to remember that the term “theory” in science is not the same as it is in general usage. Basically, a scientific theory is a unifying concept that explains a large body of data. It is a hypothesis that has withstood the test of time and the challenge of opposing views. Evolution is the basic unifying concept of biology. The National Academy of Sciences, the nation's most prestigious scientific organization, has declared evolution “one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have” and notes that evolution is supported by an overwhelming scientific consensus. The theory of evolution has as much validity as the theory of gravity, atomic theory, or the germ theory of disease.

Even more basic than evolution is the field of science called abiogenesis, which deals with the origins of life from non-life. Simple experiments have shown that amino acids, the molecular units that make up proteins, can be made in lab conditions simulating Earth's early atmosphere, and are even found in outer space. Amino acids are not living, but abiogenesis scientists are learning many ways that life could have originated from amino acids.

There is an underlying problem with the design argument, and most creationists probably aren’t aware of it. By assuming that living things have some sort of metaphysical purpose, they are intrinsically assuming what they want to prove. Purpose is a human concept. In the Universe, I maintain, things have no intrinsic purpose; they just exist. Does an atom have any purpose? Does a rock? Does a star? Does an amoeba, plant or any living thing have a real external purpose? We could say that living things have the purpose of procreating, of creating more life. However, we must realize that this is just our viewpoint, our interpretation. Rocks, trees, people, and the Universe have no intrinsic purpose. We can create purpose for ourselves, and that is good; but it’s important to understand that purpose is a human construct. Remember, when creationists begin their arguments by noting the design and purpose of nature, they are assuming what they want to prove. Don't be fooled by this logic slight of hand.

[Shaggy]

Ok... here we go I'm going to warn you this will be long so just bare with me here.

Starting off we have fossil records... Ok the fossils if anything prove that there is a God and he exists. You know the so-called "neanderthals" that supposedly lived what 20,000 years ago? Well there were actually people in the Bible that lived to be 900 years old. Did you know that when you get older that the back of your head actually starts to pop out making your head look bigger and that the bone around the area where your eyebrow is starts to actually grow out? You know what i'm getting at. Yes the "neanderthals" that were thought to be the evolutionary link from apes to humans aren't exactly what you might have thought they were. Also I don't know if you know this or not but it does say in the Bible that dinosaurs actually existed along side human beings at one time. This period would have been before the flood. You know, where Noah had to build the ark and put 2 of every animal on the ark. Well what a good way to wipe out the dinosaurs!! Also, you know how evolution says that we are getting bigger, stronger, faster and smarter? In the Bible, Genesis 6:4 says, "there were giants in those days" refering to the period before Christ came. Ok now there have been fossil findings of burial pits with as many as 50 people all of which were around 11 feet tall. 11 FEET TALL!! There was also a person I believe to have found a femur bone that was 37'' tall!! I saw a picture of it and the guy holding it had to prop it up on his shoulders. You wonder how Egyptians carried those huge slabs of stone around. Just get 2 of those guys and you're set. Also the Smithsonian has been known to hide these fossils because it would go against evolution's standards.

Alright now onto carbon dating...
Carbon dating is so off I can't even describe it so i will tell you. Scientists have carbon dated fresh seal skins that were supposedly 300 years old and they have also dated a snail shell that too was fresh and said that it was 1,000 years old. Aye yaye yaye. But anyway, the carbon dating method (you probably know) is based on how long it takes carbon-14 to decay back into nitrogen-14 since scientists supposedly know that it runs at a constant half-life rate of about 5,700 years. First of all they would have to have been there for 5,700 years to truly know that carbon-14 decayed at that specific rate. Second this method has only been around for what, maybe 100-50 years i could imagine no longer than that. Thirdly scientists say that anything beyond 50,000 years is inaccurate anyway, so the whole mumbo jumbo about the Earth being 4.6 billion years is well, hate to break it to you but false. In fact, anything containing carbon-14 is proof that it isn't billions of years old. What makes this method even more yummy, warm, and gooey on the inside is that some plants discriminate against carbon-14 and therefore test older than they actually are. Also, the Genesis flood would have greatly upset the carbon balance. The flood buried a huge amount of carbon, which became coal, oil, etc., lowering the total carbon-12 in the biosphere (including the atmosphere—plants regrowing after the flood absorb CO2, which is not replaced by the decay of the buried vegetation). Total carbon-14 is also proportionately lowered at this time, but whereas no terrestrial process generates any more carbon-12, carbon-14 is continually being produced, and at a rate which does not depend on carbon levels (it comes from nitrogen). Therefore, the carbon-14/carbon-12 ratio in plants/animals/the atmosphere before the flood had to be lower than what it is now, making those silly fossils look like they are way older than they actually are.

As for the relationship between animal species, well I don't see any resemblences. I mean if you're talking about missing links and such, nobody has found anything on that sort of thing. Besides what are the chances of the DNA in fish or whatever was first to mutate it self into lungs that can breathe air. You have the cells, the tissues, the systems within the fish, they'd all have to change within one generation of fish. Not very likely huh? And if you want to get even more complex, just look at your eye. Even the founder of evolution says that with the billions of parts to the eye the likeliness of something just happening over time seems ridiculous. Those weren't his exact words, but pretty close to it.

Yeah the big bang, i don't know about that one. I heard that since einstein couldn't explain how everything was all started, he just made it up, like a joke, except not funny. How do you take nothing and make it into something? You can't right? Well that's what this theory is all about. you know when you leave your room sit? It gets dirty right? Also if you have a building doesn't it prove that there was a builder? Because you can't let something like crap sit for 1,000,000 years and hope it turns into gold by chance can you? No. Because it isn't possible. Same concept applies with God. If there is an Earth, doesn't that mean that there is a creator? When it sits and gets dirty who do think cleans it up?

Oh yeah also God wasn't bored one day and said "i think i'll just make this and see what happens." No you need to read the bible before you can say anything about that. If you were to know the extent in which he loves everyone, you'd probably believe too. if he truly thought that then he would have wiped us out one day because he could, but no he loves everyone of his creations, even if they don't accept him.
HUH??

Where are you geting all of your info at? 900 year people, giants? I never once read that in the bible. More like movies to me.. :)

[Shaggy]

I'm going to admit straight out that I'm an atheist, and don't believe in the existance of any Gods, Godesses or supreme beings of any kind. As a result of that, I also don't believe heaven or hell exist, and that there is any truth to the creation story.

Having said that, I also know that evolution, which I do believe in, is only a theory, and there is no definate, concrete proof of that either, but the evidence we do have, fossil records, carbon dating, the relationship between animal species etc, do lead me to give it a lot more credence than creation. I just can't get my head around the idea that a super being got bored one day, and decided to create a universe. Big bang is'nt perfectly explained either, but again, makes more sense to me.
Ark,

I'm not saying your wrong, but where do we go after we die? What do you think happens?

[psikid@cox.net]

we just rot in the ground. i believe in evolution. i just learned more about it last week in biology. and why is there so many religons anyways? and i have tryed praying before and it didnt help. also "the_dude 3" said that in the bible that people would be travling well that is BS because people were traviling before the bible was written. most of the stories in the bible are a just simpler to explain complicated things to the simpler minds of the people in the time of jesus. i saw the passion of the christ movie and i dont think anybody who could be hurt take that kind of punishment without dying. and if he had powers why didnt he just heal himself to prove he was the "messiah" and he could heal himself so he could carry his cross to the top of the hill easier i mean he knew he was going die anyways. and there is no solid proof that god, heaven, or hell exsits. people say the heaven is in the sky but how do they know that? It could just be on earth because if souls exsist then they are invisible they could just be floating around and we would all be around them.

[Arkacia]

I don't believe we go anywhere after death.

In my opinion, a person dying is like turning a light off. Thats it, game over screen.

I honestly believe that it was mans fear of death, and our great feeling of loss when a loved one dies that was responsible for the various afterlife stories springing up. They provide reassurance and comfort. There is also human arrogance. We are the supreme animals on earth, we can't just disappear after death, we must live on in another form etc etc.

Thats my beliefs anyway, I know most won't agree, but I'm comfortable with them.

[Shaggy]

I don't believe we go anywhere after death.

In my opinion, a person dying is like turning a light off. Thats it, game over screen.

I honestly believe that it was mans fear of death, and our great feeling of loss when a loved one dies that was responsible for the various afterlife stories springing up. They provide reassurance and comfort. There is also human arrogance. We are the supreme animals on earth, we can't just disappear after death, we must live on in another form etc etc.

Thats my beliefs anyway, I know most won't agree, but I'm comfortable with them.
That is a scary thought, lights out, you maybe right but who knows...no one does, until we are actually dead.

[phantomullet]

HUH??

Where are you geting all of your info at? 900 year people, giants? I never once read that in the bible. More like movies to me.. :)
I am going to have to stick up for the_dude on this one. If ya got a Bible handy, just turn to Genesis (happens to be the first book in the Bible in case you didn't know). I would understand you criticising this statement because it sounds unbeleivable, but whether it is true or not, it is indeed in the Bible. I also find it easy to believe that you haven't heard about the giants because there is only one little verse that says something like " in those days,there were giants" but the 900 year old people thing is found in Genesis:5 when it describes the age of everyone in the line of Adam and Eve to Noah and then later from Noah to Abraham where the age of death can be seen gradually decreasing. Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but it is definately in there.

(In response to Arkacia's long but interesting article) it was pretty good but I have a few problems with it. Most scientists would even tell you that the atomic theory or the germ theory of diesase are much more valid and have more proof then the theory of evolution. The main reason is that those two theories can be observed today and proven with actual observations of things occuring right now. It is more difficult to prove evolution in the same way because it is such a slow process that would require (at the least) hundreds of thousands of years of observations. If somebody actual had seen the evolution from single celled organisms to animals, then that would be a different story. That isn't to say that there are not other ways to prove it, but it cannot be proved like the atomic theory or other various theories. Also, useless organs do not prove anything about evolution. Honestly, I have two nipples and in some way that proves I evolved from an ape? My eyes are not as advanced as those of an octupus so that means I evolved from single-celled organisms? I've got news for you, God did not and never has claimed that the human race was perfect in any way. There are many ways that animals have better physical characteristics than humans so proving that does not in any way prove that creation is wrong.
i saw the passion of the christ movie and i dont think anybody who could be hurt take that kind of punishment without dying. and if he had powers why didnt he just heal himself to prove he was the "messiah" and he could heal himself so he could carry his cross to the top of the hill easier i mean he knew he was going die anyways.
My post is already long enough soI am going to get straight to the point. You completely missed the whole point of that movie which is basically the foundation for Christian thought. Wow, you do not understand at all.

[the_dude3]

Obviously you have not read the Bible Shaggy. Read Genesis ch.5 and actually read this time. About the prophecies I was talking about I meant that people would be traveling all around and it would be more frequent. I know very well that people traveled way back when, but if they did it wasn't very far unless it was of some importance. Jesus didn't heal himself because he had to die for the sins of mankind and he also did prove that he was the messiah by feeding 50,000 people with only 2 loaves of bread and some fish. Oh yeah, just so you know heaven is not thought to be in the sky and earth is certainly not a heavenly place.

Refering back to Arkacia's post that she quoted by that godless guy, I'll get to that in my next post. I gots to go.

[HinesDaMan]

Honestly...I think this thread should be closed...As important as this debate is, it is turning into place to spout off facts that may or may not be true...I mean, between the_dude 3 and everyone arguing against him I think that I have heard every fact and myth for both arguments...please, Arkacia, end this.

[Mick]

That's not really a reason to close the thread as people should be free to discuss ideas and belief as long as it stays within the rules. I certainly know what you mean about facts and myth....... but what can I say?

My biggest problem with some of these stories from the bible is that people talk about them as if they were a proven fact when really no one can prove any of it. But then everyone is entitled to believe what they like.

[psikid@cox.net]

i think that religon is like a scientific theory. because it is just a way to explain the unexplainable. and both cant be proven completely.

[Shaggy]

Well, this discussion shouldn't piss anyone off here. Theses ideas are what people think, and what I feel is that if you are happy in what you think/belive then that is great. There is no need for arguements here, if there is any going on.

[dunkinmb310]

something had to start the big bang so evolustion with a little twist of creation

[the_dude3]

That doesn't work dunkinmb310. The reason being is that no where in the Bible does it say that over time creatures eventually became man and no where in the Bible does it say that planets formed like they did according to the big bang theory.

[HinesDaMan]

Dude, nowhere in the Bible are a lot of things said. You have take your religion with a grain of salt. As much as I love it, I think that creation is merely an explanation of evolution, and just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say otherwise doesn't make it untrue.

[the_dude3]

Yes but you think God would want something of this importance to be written down in the Bible at least once or maybe even a little hint as to whether or not evolution was involved in the creation process. What the heck are you talking about anyway? Taking your religion with a grain of salt?

[JsWoman]

I personally believe in creation, but that doesn't mean that someone else can't think differently. I believe that God can just create life, and in the bible it says that before he started there was nothing. You would think that we would be able to remember, at some point in our history, that there was at least something there. Animals might think differently, but they still rely on what around them to survive. Wouldn't we have done the same if we grew to be the way we are through evolution?

[yarnellcg17]

I have no views on either one..I believe if one wants to establish in their own mind evolution was the way..then they can do that..

If one does the same with creation..then that is ok in my eyes as well..

[JsWoman]

So what is this? Do you have the fence stuck through you, or built around you? Just curiosity, since I know you aren't going to be one to "fall" off the fence.

I mean, I know what I believe, but it doesn't hurt anyone to believe or disbelieve one or the other of the theories.

[yarnellcg17]

Oh No.. I'm not timid in making any debates on things such as even this..all I'm saying is each is their own.. and I made my view on it..It's a positive view for me..

[the_dude3]

What do you believe in then yarnell? I'd really like to hear your opinion on what you think of when you talk about how we got here. After all, you said that you aren't timid in making a debate on this...

[yarnellcg17]

I have no views on either one..I believe if one wants to establish in their own mind evolution was the way..then they can do that..

If one does the same with creation..then that is ok in my eyes as well..


I think that this above statement wasn't a debate..



What do you believe in then yarnell? I'd really like to hear your opinion on what you think of when you talk about how we got here. After all, you said that you aren't timid in making a debate on this...

Below your comment.. is my comment to a friend


Oh No.. I'm not timid in making any debates on things such as even this..all I'm saying is each is their own.. and I made my view on it..It's a positive view for me..

If you read it clearly.. all it was.. was an opinion..and not a debate..and it should be seen as to how I ended my opinion..

[JsWoman]

the_dude3... You know, Yarnell is open for debates, but not everyone has an opinion on evolution or creation. He is one that doesn't. I personally believe in creation, but to each his/her own. So quit trying to start an argument, or debate, where there is no need for one.

[the_dude3]

I just want to know what he believes in. Nothing more, nothing less. So please, tell me! I want to know what you think on this subject, I might ask questions, but I won't argue.

[Emptydeath]

i also am athiest and i belive the we were created through evelution because all animals were created through evolution and we have proof of that science has come a long way we have found out that we evolved from the same thing monkeys evolved from

[the_dude3]

What proof is there? And if any at all please tell me because I haven't found any SOLID proof out there that evolution has even a chance of being true.

[Emptydeath]

first of all if u would read scientific america scientists have discovered that the way the dna in humans and monkeys is so simaler "differs by 2%" they have been able to track back to the point were the difference is and found that it was just 1 genetic mutation they dont know what the mutation was "monkeys or humans" but the have realized that if that mutation wasent there the 2 species "monkeys and humans" would be one and that one species would be the evolution of the thing before it "watever that is"


also evolution could be gods process of creation and because of that i am no longer athies :angel1:

[Freakums]

Solid proof, dude?
How's logic?
We know that traits are carried on through generatioins: I am sure you ahev heard soemone say: "Oh, he has his fathers nose!" or soemhitn gsimilar right?
Plus, that monk person, whose name eludes me by about this much | |, prooved that with his pea plants, as well.
Now, we can look at animlas and say that these ones are more similar to this one then soem other animals are.
We know that animals breed. We know that animal;s die.
We knwo that to breed successfully, the animalsd have to be alive, OR, have some way of creatign offspring afterdeath. Regardless, the animal still ahs to live long enough to mature to crerate offspring, who will then have to surbvive long enough to grow old enough to create offsrping, who will then ahve to survuive long enough . . ..

That's concrete.
Here's the logic part:
Soem triats may hlep animals to survive better, or differently. If these changes are gradual enough, enough animals of the same species may develop these triats at aroudnt eh same time, enough to separate them form the rets of the species.
Thus will new traits form.

But if soem good triast are gotten rid of, or soem bnad ones adde,d the the animal;s probably won,t survive to breed. If tyhey don't breed, these traits won,t be carried on.
If soem good traist are added, or bad pones removed, they becoem more successful then the others and push them out of existance through competition for niches in the environment.

As well, there may eb spots of danegr, where the total number pf the specioes dwindle,s in which only the best will survive, all in all. Less bad traits, more good ones, becuase the best aniamls are those that have the best triats, right? And they pass these traits on to their children.

To go back to the beginning, we can start to see where soem species who are simialr to each other kguth be simialr.
A common ancestor.
The ancestor species developed two good traits, and eahc of these traisrt developed oppistie each other, cretaiung two species.
Or: One part of the species learned to live or eat, or otherwise differed from thew rest of the species without goign into competition with them. Like the Finches on the Galapagos (spelled right?) Islands. Soem learned to eat fish, soem elarned to eat bugs, or berries, or whatever. They didn't have any problem with livign space, so they just needed to solve the problem of food for everyione of them, and tye did., And now severral species exist, oen of them beign the original species of finch that approached Galapagos.

Now, who can deny we are similar to animals?
WHo can deny that we bear extreme similarity to:
Pigs
Dolphins
Monkeys, gorillas, Chimps, etc.
Whales
Etc.
Same body structure, and all four listed here have been showbn to be very intelligent: moreso then most other animals: who can aruge that intelligence ins't the one trait that defiones humanity?

Now, from that,m all you ahve to do is follow the previouis reasoning.
That isn't solid proof.
That's possibility.
Just like god, and creation.


Becuase you can say that GHod meant it to appear that way to us.
Or: Likre emptydetah says: his method of creating us.

Nowwe egt to the root of our problem. You can proof up anyhtign with logic.
If I so wanted, i could proof that the world is flat.
Thatb the speed light doesn't exist. Or that qwe can exceed it.
I cna prove that Einstein was wrong. I can.
I cna prove that that the arth created us to balance out its environment.
I can!
It's called the Gaia theory.
Now, Can we have any view differign form this?
Or any more personal opinions?
Sorry fgor this easys, but i am tired of peropel saying Evolutionisn,t possible becuase god created us.
Or thatwe don'gt have oen scrap of proof for it.
Well, you don't ewither, fro your whole god thing, y'know?

[yarnellcg17]

I agree with you Freakums of similiar life forms of specie
prior to what we have existing today..and we all know that most reptiles
that were around 4 billion years ago..are still here on this planet
today..

Only thing in Evolution that states man and primates were similiar would be
Neanderthal Man..Which I don't believe far fetched given that other
animals themselves have evolved to what they are today..
Most of that had to do with the environment changes over time..adaptation
and that included man..creation or evolution wise as whole..

Whether it's creation or evolution.. we will one of these days find out..
at the time of our existence passing..

dude3..there is your long awaited opinion from me.. as I find this to make sense both ways..

[the_dude3]

Thank you Yarnell for clearing that up for me, now I have something to argue :). Anyway, I will start with Emptydeath...

Ok Emptydeath, just because there is a 2% difference between us and monkeys does not mean that we evolved from them. Look how different we are from them. We have way more intelligence than they do, different facial features, aren't as hairy, and our feet don't have what I like to call "thumbs". As far as the magazine that you have read or are reading goes, I don't know if they entirely know what they are talking about or if they just made it up which they probably did. You see, scientists don't like to be proven wrong and neither do whole magazines that are about atheistic science, so they might make things up just so people might believe what they are talking about. And besides that, you'd think that at least SOME of the "missing links" would be here despite the "survival of the fittest" shtuff that Mr. Darwin has talked about. Oh yeah and what you were saying about evolution being God's way of getting people to be people, that's a negative on that one. The reason being is because that if God used evolution in his process of creating us, you'd think that He would have mentioned it in the Bible at least once.

As for you Freakums here's my thoughts about your comment...

You know nothing of logic Freakums. First of all the scientist's name was Gregor Mendel and he did studies with pea plants (as you know) just to show how things relate to each other in their separate species. He showed through peas that traits such as hieght and color pigments in living things could be passed on to one another. As far as breeding goes, how do you think animals would have figured out how to breed? I'm sure that they weren't smart enough to figure out what goes where and how to do it except maybe for things that reproduce asexually, but that only goes for most bacteria, some plants, and anything smaller than that. Just imagine the chance of that!! Animals figuring out how to reproduce, animals getting the organs to reproduce, with all of it right in place, each and every individual little tissue and cell intact and ready to go for the right time and place. Likely? I didn't think so. Same goes for every other organ in your body and everything else's. Even the DNA would have to be in the EXACT right place eitherwise you wouldn't work. You might have a butt for a face, or an arm growing out the side of your hip, and who would need that? Also, listen or read rather, what you are saying. "the animal still ahs to live long enough to mature to crerate offspring, who will then have to surbvive long enough to grow old enough to create offsrping, who will then ahve to survuive long enough . . .." Each thing would have to survive LONG ENOUGH to reproduce. I don't think tha's likely since we've always got the best of the best of the best out there. And to add on to the trait thinger one more time, good traits won't just form themselves due to trial and error, they have to randomly occur, which means that out of milllions and millions and even billions of tries, without knowing what the error was and being able to correct it, the trait would have to show up out of no where and be a GOOD trait, not a bad one obviously. And think about the different types of animals, bugs, bacteria, anything living or not, would have had to have this process happen in order for it to be there. Also, rocks and precious metals and such don't just evolve, they sit there, and how'd they get there? By just heat and pressurization. Again, likely? I didn't think so. And how can you take something not living, and make it living? Especially by chance. Only Dr. Frankenstein did that and he was a fictional character! Fiction!! Evolution could not create that, only a God could.

The story with the finches in the Galapagos Islands I don't quite understand because wouldn't they already know how to eat because of instinct? I know that evolution says that animals have instincts that they use such as something called foraging, which the fish that you are talking about were doing.

Now who can deny we are similar to animals? No one can because we have eyes, ears, etc. so I'll give you that one but... Who then can deny I am similar to a piece of metal? I have some of the same molecules in my body as the metal does in its atomic make-up. What I'm saying is that you could say that about anything and it doesn't mean crap as far as considering evolution to be truth goes. Also, no one could deny that intelligence is ONE of the things that defines who we are as people because we are the most intelligent beings on the earth. With that said, sure we have a body and such, but that doesn't MEAN that we are related to one another beyond our species.

Ok and you can't prove to me by logic that the earth is flat. If so, do it in your next post because i'm dying to see what you can come up with for that. Also you want to know why they call it the Gaia THEORY? Because they haven't proven it as fact. I don't know if you know this or not, but theories aren't exactly things that have been proven as fact. They're just ideas thrown out into the open that have data collected on them to find out whether or not they are true.

Yarnell, neanderthal man is not exactly proof that we have evolved from apes. I'm not saying that you said it was proof, but I'm just informing you that in the Bible. There are accounts of people living up to 900 years old. Now the neaderthals you speak of could very well be those people. As you know, as people get older, the bone along your eyebrows starts to grow out and so does the back of your head. Just imagine what 900 years of that would have done to a person. Make him/her look a lot like what scientists like to call "primitive man". Also what you were mentioning about reptiles that were here 4 million years ago still being here today like their children's children's children. Ya know what I mean? Anyway as you know, scientists like to use carbon dating which isn't entirely a good method of dating fossils because I've heard that they have dated a fresh seal skin to be 300 years old. Also with the Bible in mind, if you've heard about the story of Noah and the flood that came from constant rain on Earth for 40 days and nights i believe or somewhere around there, to make a long story short, there was a ton of water covering the Earth at that time. Actually you know what read this article I found on the net and you'll understand what I'm getting at here.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp

Yarnell, I like your end statement, "Whether it's creation or evolution.. we will one of these days find out..at the time of our existence passing.." but what if it's too late and you find yourself in fire burning and suffering, regretting that you ever said or thought anything other than creation was true? You know what I'm talking about? Hell. A place thatyou do not want to go when you die. I'm not saying to believe in God and/ or the Christian faith for that reason, I'm just saying find out what you really want in life. Something that's shallow and empty like evolution, or a life full of meaning and purpose with Christ Jesus. I know I sound like a preacher person when I talk like that, but don't just set God aside. Try it out once and i guarantee that you will like it.

So yeah... Sorry for this essay, but I'm tired of people saying Creation isn't possible because there are scientists saying that we came out of a ball of matter or that we don't have a scrap of proof for it. Well we do, and there's nothing you can really do about it. I have one question though... What proof isn't there for our whole God thing?

[Arkacia]

You seem to have made the same mistake many other creation enthusists make. That Darwin claimed humans decended from apes. He never said that. The theory is both species (and humans are just another animal species, no ifs buts or maybes) decended from a common ancestor that was neither ape nor human. Don't forget that creation is a theory as well, and has nowhere near the evidence to support it that evolution does.

The difference between us and our animal cousins and a peice of metal is that we both reproduce and metal doesn't, we both take in food and expel the waste and metal doesn't, we both have the capacity to adapt and learn and metal doesn't ect.

I'm sorry but I laughed out loud at the very thought that neanderthal man is just 900 year old human sapiens. What about the other branches of the human family tree like the cro magdons or homo erectus. We don't live that long and just because stories about ancient abnormally long lived people are written in a religious book doesn't make it automatically true. We don't even have any proof at all that most of the people named in the bible ever existed. The church used to believe the world was flat and the earth was the centre of the universe, and persecute those that dared to say different. We now know the church was wrong on both counts.

You write off the achievements of generation after generation of well trained, intelligent scientists, but expect us to believe without question a book that was written 2000 years ago by religious zealots to be the absolute truth. Sorry but I don't buy that at all.

Something that may interest those interested in this subject (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3494543.stm)

[yarnellcg17]

That's Right.. we humans.. are animals..no if ands or buts about it..

in the Dictionary the definition for Human..specifically states its..

no ifs ands or buts about it..We have a name like all species do..

To live too 100 yrs of age our bones have aged 1/10 of that number..

To live 964 yrs.. as Noah would have.. it would not have mattered..

to much phenomena involved with that.. most from BC period to even

early AD period were not even living to age 29..

I do pretty well as to be bipartisan on issues..

Personally I have regretted things I've said or done in my life..but that's personal..

I never have never regretted any thing I have ever stated in a debate of any type..

[Emptydeath]

first off all scientific american has to post only facts otherwise they would be suid for faulse advertizing because they say right in there magazine everything in it is pure fact no theorys and if u would have read my post correctly you would have noticed that i said that we dident evolve from monkeys but evolved from the same thing monkeys evolved from NOT FROM MONKEYS that was the whole gist of my post so you should read more carefully and you said that it would of said somthing about evolution being gods way of creation in the bible but the bible isent 100% correct so this is my theory only but i think that the story of adam and eve is a representation of the whole way of life that we will be perfect by the time of the apocolipse and adam eating the apple that statin seduced him to is the apocolipse so the story of adam and eve is entrly a representation of all life up to the apocolipse evolving

[Freakums]

Alright, dude: you misuderstood my arguement.
I didn<t try to prove evolution. I just tried to prove that it is possible, Unlikely, in some peopels eyes, but possible.
As is god, as is gaia, as is all else liek that.
Ideas thrown out without proof.
Evolutionh seems to be the one that most scientists accept . . . buit I would hasten to say that that still doesn<t explain thew universe or even the first bits of life.
As for the unlikelyhoods of evolution, you are forgettignt hat whiel humans didn,t have eyes for 40 million years, eyes have existed for much longer then that.
why 40 million, not 40 billion, like you said?
Becuase you are calaculating random chance:Ifigure in the fact that even imperfect eyes weould cause the animal possesiung them to die.
As for the hoe would abniamls know?
you ahev instinct.
I could stop there, but, to make it clear, those aniamls who couldn,t figure it out, whastever "it" may be, so long as you understand i mean somethign needed for the species to survive, wouldn,t carry on the species, those that could carried on the species and eventually the knowledge stopped being taught and animals specialized, knwoledge becomign instinct.

okay: organs, evolution: no, not just trial error. There is chance.
But, chance HAS TO OCCUR.
First law of probability.
if there is a millionth chance for everyonew in Toronto to be mugged tomorrow, you can taske any person and say that they propbably won<t get mugged.
But extend that to two million people and you can say wiuth certainty that two peopel will be mugged. Which two? who knows?
Who cares, for that matter?
The thing is that two peopel, would get mugged.
To simplfy: SOEMTHING has to happen. It may be very improbable, but when youmlook at it, million-to-one chances crop up everyday. How many people win the lottery? Have won the lottery? Isn<t that a million to onbe chance? Yet, it is impossible that NO ONE will win the lottery so many tiems in a row.
Better yet, let<s use a fifty-fifty draw: All the tickets arew sold. No matter how small the chnaces are: someone HAS to win.

Now, we have millions of animals. There is a 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000th chance THIS trait will show up. Giiven enough tiem, it will.
Too juch time, yes, buit do you think that aniamls can only evolve by a certain order? there are MILLIONS and MILLIONS of possible good traits that animals can get: due to the law of probability, it is impossible that every single animal WON'T geta good trait somewhere a;long the line. And bad traits,too, biut those die out of the species, remember?
In fact, it would be a far shot to say that if you kept 100 chimps in a cage for 10 generations, that the surviving breed of chimps hasn't developed a few good traits.
Make sense to you?
Now, take Evolution and throw in a few hundred million years.
and rememebr that soem animal;s have extremely short lifes. A few seconds for soem bacteria. Hundreds upon hyundreds of generations every minute.
So: yeah, it may be unlikely that we developed the organs that we did: but it is equallyunlikely for evry other possible arrangement of organs that we could possibly have. And for evry other possible organs that we could have. And for everry other possible organ-like system, perjhaps, if you wish to think thatr way.
SOMETHING had to happen. This is what did.

Now: asfor intelligence, how do we iknow we have it? Define intelligence, please.


:evil:
Yeah, pretty hard, isn't it?
As for math, literature, alng8uage, anythign you wish to say in the concrete form, well, saniamls can do that too.
Scientists have even provben that bacteria may be able to do similar operations, if ona lesser scale. MAY BE ABLE TO. I stress that point. It is possible that soem bacteria may "understand"(noptice the quotation marks . . .) math.

Now: the earth is flat?
Well:
Peopel navigated for years, centuries, even, thinkign the erath was flat, and itworked.
The ship dissapearign over the horizon may be an illusion. Maybe its the eyes way of compensating for extreme distance.
Teh photos of a round earth may be faked. The moon may be juystra huge piece of cnavas on wood across the sky. Have you ever been up there yourself?
menawhile, I cna use Einstiens theory of relativity here to prove my point:
Nothign can move faster then light. But if there is a force called gravity that keeps us on a round earth, well, This force can be said to travel faster then light. You don,t calculate where the stars are shiniong from to claculate gravity, you clacul;ate wejhere they are now, after billioons of years. The pull they exert goes faster then light. Explain that.

You see: all i need to do is disprove that thwe world is round. becuase all you ahve is theory and what other peopel ahve said.
And don,t givce me math: Gravity travels fasterthen light, but yo8ur math says thats impossible, there<s a flaw somehwre in that.
I could go futher.
If you want to argue aboiut the earth: round or flat?
opena new thread and I'll fgladly combat you.
Perhaps with a bit of interest, even.

To summarize:
Creation ro evolution, there is no proof or disproof for either.
Don't ask for proof becuase we can do the same, and all we can do is argue that neither of us has actual proof.
What we do have is the machaniucs of how it could work. that's all.

[Emptydeath]

Im sorry i should have been more specific on who i was appoiting my argument to i wasent talking to you i was talking to the dude sorry for the confusion :D

[Arkacia]

I found the information in this list very interesting. It debunks a lot of creationist claims about evolution.

Talk Origins (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html)

Dude3, this section explains your carbon dated seal.

Click Here (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html)

[the_dude3]

OK here goes another long post that people are going to debate against me until I fall to my grave. ;)

Emptydeath- It's called the 1st Amendment. They can say whatever the heck they want and it wouldn't be false advertising because it doesn't exactly involve a product that's being sold. Well the magazine is being sold but I mean like it won't do anybody anyharm if does have false information in it. Oh yeah, does it really matter what i said that evolutionists think we evolved from or Darwin or whatever? Or are you just trying to find a reason to make me look like I'm an idiot? Same goes for Arkacia I suppose because she said the same thing I'm pretty sure.

Arkacia- To the person who said lets agree to disagree. hehe. Anyway I don't know if that was the article about the seal or not, but doesn't that prove my point? How do you know if that hasn't been the case for most or even all things that were or are being carbon dated? So yeah, I read some of the things that debunk creationism. Not bad I have to say but they are faulty. I'll get to that in another post because I don't exactly have enough time to cover them all. Here's what you said in the post right after my last one...
"You seem to have made the same mistake many other creation enthusists make. That Darwin claimed humans decended from apes. He never said that. The theory is both species (and humans are just another animal species, no ifs buts or maybes) decended from a common ancestor that was neither ape nor human. Don't forget that creation is a theory as well, and has nowhere near the evidence to support it that evolution does.

The difference between us and our animal cousins and a peice of metal is that we both reproduce and metal doesn't, we both take in food and expel the waste and metal doesn't, we both have the capacity to adapt and learn and metal doesn't ect.

I'm sorry but I laughed out loud at the very thought that neanderthal man is just 900 year old human sapiens. What about the other branches of the human family tree like the cro magdons or homo erectus. We don't live that long and just because stories about ancient abnormally long lived people are written in a religious book doesn't make it automatically true. We don't even have any proof at all that most of the people named in the bible ever existed. The church used to believe the world was flat and the earth was the centre of the universe, and persecute those that dared to say different. We now know the church was wrong on both counts.

You write off the achievements of generation after generation of well trained, intelligent scientists, but expect us to believe without question a book that was written 2000 years ago by religious zealots to be the absolute truth. Sorry but I don't buy that at all."
I know Creation is a theory as well, I don't deny that. As for the piece of metal part goes, I used that as an example to show vague that person's claim was. I never said that that was the case for the fossils, just that they could be the people that lived to be that long in the accounts in the Bible. Just because we don't live that long now doesn't mean that we did back then. But with the mind of an evolutionist you think that we are starting of small and getting bigger and better, as for the Creationist way mentions that we are getting smaller in a sense that we were better before. Cro magdons and homo erectus are examples of what I was about to say before unless I said it already, I don't know but anyway... I have reason to believe that when people say that evolution is happening as we speak, and we find another new species, then people say " oh there you go, evolution," that when it happens I see that it never extends beyond the... I want to say genre but I don't know if that's correct. Whatever is a step above species. So yeah and I know you're going to say' " Well evolution is a gradual process." There was a thing I heard about called punctual equalibrium. I don't know if you know about it or not, but I'm guessing by your knowledge of evolution that you do so here's this... Wouldn't that have happened at least once while the evidence was being collected of evolution? Or are they pulling it out of their butts to save themselves from further contradiction? No jjk. But seriously, you wonder, but I suppose you could say the same thing with creation too but then they'd be going against their teaching by lying, and I'm arguing with myself... But anyway, I don't just blatantly accept the Bible to be true as according to what your silly head is thinking. Silly. (Sorry I'm kind of tired right now) Seriously, I did research on these two subjects and to my conclusion, evolution is false, and creation is true. So don't come up all in ma grill sayin that I talk smack just cuz I'm all Jesus wack! Yeah that's right, a lil taste of my rhymin skillz. Now back to da biz... I mean even scientists thought the earth was flat. They even concluded that if you stick hay in a corner, that mice would all of the sudden just appear! After a few days of course... Smart and well-trained they were. The Bible was not written 2000 years ago fyi. That is the New Testament you're thinking of Mrs. Bucky-pants. The Old Tesament was written before that and the Bible was finished after the New Testament was written. But who am I kidding, you probably know this. Ah! I gotta stop to go to bed. I'll finish later but yeah don't respond until I'm done cuz then I have to write even more in one post. Or if you could please, try not to because you need to hear the ultimate supredy duperdy details of my next post. Ta ta for now.

[Arkacia]

Ok, I'll save my comeback for after your next post ;).

I will however apologise for how my last long post sounded. Reading it again just now, I did sound very crabby. Sorry :).

[Emptydeath]

Ok the dude you sayed that i may just be trying to make you look dumb you do that alll by yourself first of all if a magazine anounces that there is no false information than there cant be any thats a law second advertizment isent nessecarely just selling a product it can be informing somthing to

[the_dude3]

OK I'm just writing this so can inform you that i need more time to prepare myself for the next post just because I know it's gonna take me forever to write. Sorry I just haven't had time to do it but I do have enough time to write this...

Arkacia I'm really sorry. I know you are eager to post but I work a lot and school's coming up so I'll do it either this weekend or sometime next week.

Emptydeath you know what I'm not even going to read anything more you have to write because for one you type like crap, for two you make no sense because just look at the Weekly World News magazine. They advertise that they are the only truthful magazine yet they report stories of aliens having sexual relations with Saddam Hussien. Like I said, people have a right to say what they want. The 1st Amendment...

Like I said I apologize to anyone waiting to reply to me but please be patient with me. I just need some time...

[yarnellcg17]

How did I do in writing?

Just a question is all though..but I hope I made some good sense tho

[Emptydeath]

OK I'm just writing this so can inform you that i need more time to prepare myself for the next post just because I know it's gonna take me forever to write. Sorry I just haven't had time to do it but I do have enough time to write this...

Arkacia I'm really sorry. I know you are eager to post but I work a lot and school's coming up so I'll do it either this weekend or sometime next week.

Emptydeath you know what I'm not even going to read anything more you have to write because for one you type like crap, for two you make no sense because just look at the Weekly World News magazine. They advertise that they are the only truthful magazine yet they report stories of aliens having sexual relations with Saddam Hussien. Like I said, people have a right to say what they want. The 1st Amendment...

Like I said I apologize to anyone waiting to reply to me but please be patient with me. I just need some time...


the dude i do belive in aliens people see aliens having sexual relations all the time or think they see aliens having sexual relations but that means that the magazine is getting false information the point is they saw somthing but scientific amarican is written by the scientists that reserch and experiment all that they post in there magazine so they cant reseve faulse information be cause there getting the information from themselves

[JsWoman]

The_dude3... Can I ask you something?? In the gay rights forum you're all about the bible, even quoting from the bible to prove your ideas and disprove other peoples, and, here, you're trying to disprove what is being said in the bible... Is it just because you don't like the idea of there being gays/lesbians, or do you honestly not know what side you freaking want to be on?? Honestly, I'm not trying to slam you or make you look dumb, although I partially agree with emptydeath, I just really want to know what your stand is. I mean, honestly, I believe that if you are christian you would believe more in creationalism than evolutionism. Am I the only one that sees this contridiction?

[phantomullet]

The_dude3... Can I ask you something?? In the gay rights forum you're all about the bible, even quoting from the bible to prove your ideas and disprove other peoples, and, here, you're trying to disprove what is being said in the bible... Is it just because you don't like the idea of there being gays/lesbians, or do you honestly not know what side you freaking want to be on?? Honestly, I'm not trying to slam you or make you look dumb, although I partially agree with emptydeath, I just really want to know what your stand is. I mean, honestly, I believe that if you are christian you would believe more in creationalism than evolutionism. Am I the only one that sees this contridiction?

WOW!!!! Wtf are you talking about! The dude has written pages it seems (that take forever to read) DEFENDING creationism. I don't know where you got the idea that he is trying to disprove what is being said in the Bible, because that is where he gets half of his proof to back up what he is saying. I don't know if you just skimmed over one of his quotes or what but anyone who reads the dude's posts knows exactly where he stands on this issue.
as for whoever asked who can't see the similarities between humans and whales...
http://dkd.net/whales/art/orca.jpg
http://entimg.msn.com/i/mu/j/jessicasimpson/JessicaSimpson_Christmas_150x200.jpg
come on!

[JsWoman]

Ok, maybe I didn't read far enough back. The_dude3, for that I apologize. Next time I will make sure I know the whole story before I open my trap. :o

Phantomullet, thanks for setting me straight on that account.

[yarnellcg17]

Baller if I see another fanny shot like that I will not only delete the post ..I will delete you..
keep on debating but no other stuff that will disrupt this thread

[Emptydeath]

WOW!!!! Deleted the 3 Letter Acronym..it does not belong in here in any post are you talking about! The dude has written pages it seems (that take forever to read) DEFENDING creationism. I don't know where you got the idea that he is trying to disprove what is being said in the Bible, because that is where he gets half of his proof to back up what he is saying. I don't know if you just skimmed over one of his quotes or what but anyone who reads the dude's posts knows exactly where he stands on this issue.
as for whoever asked who can't see the similarities between humans and whales...
http://dkd.net/whales/art/orca.jpg
http://entimg.msn.com/i/mu/j/jessicasimpson/JessicaSimpson_Christmas_150x200.jpg
come on!


the dude has made a point o were he stands but he wont take in anyone elses theorys im talking about how the bilble and science could both be right but he doesent think science has anything to do with it hes being very conservative on were he stands ( hes probebly a republican) not that thats bad but it does mean hes more suburn on the issues and you can tell that in his posts

Mod Edit: I will delete all 3 Letter Acronyms as I see them..although they are not specifically written out..they still serve no purpose in any posts as they are foul and profane

[Arkacia]

While these debates between creation and evolution can be fun and interesting, I do feel everyone involved needs to understand that no minds will be changed here :).

Religious people who believe the bible is truth will of course not agree with evolution and secular people who believe science is right will not agree with creation.

The one thing that does irritate me is the new idea of intelligent design or the argument that the scientists are all right with evolution and we did indeed evolve, but thats because God planned it that way and is behind the whole thing.

This theory is in my opinion an insult to both sides of the debate and has been invented by those who are trying to bring both sides together and give them somenting they can both agree on. Problem is though, it has backfired on them and has just given both creationists and evolutionists something to ridicule and deride. There is absolutly nothing in the bible and no evidence outside it to support intelligent design.

(Emptydeath, this was a general post and not aimed at you or your beliefs. Please don't feel offended :))

[Emptydeath]

sorry i was being kind of haste in my last post i find that its good that everyone has there own belifs on this issue thats what makes the debate fun and the dude im sorry for aiming at you in my posts

[yarnellcg17]

sorry i was being kind of haste in my last post i find that its good that everyone has there own belifs on this issue thats what makes the debate fun and the dude im sorry for aiming at you in my posts

Yes and I think that is basically what we need to remember always is that we all have are own opinions.. Some may not like what others have to say in opinions.. but I know one thing is certain..we all can learn from them..

[the_dude3]

Yeah I don't know if I really feel like doing this anymore, just because I am getting tired of going back and forth and back and forth with everybody. Emptydeath, don't think you know me so well to be republican because I'm not, exactly. The thing is is that I don't really have a favoritism for either side. I don't know exactly why but I don't. Anyway, yeah like everyone has been saying, people have their own beliefs, and that's cool. I just wish that it wasn't so tough to find out what our true purpose was, if their is or was one at all. I just wish that everybody knew what the right thing was and we could just go from there. It sucks because the harsh reality is that no matter what we believe in, we have to put some sort of form of faith into believing in what we believe. What the worst thing about it is is that nobody really knows for sure unless they have seen a form of a God or whatever. My conclusion is this... Along the lines of what yarnell said earlier, we won't truly know until we die, and when that happens, it could be too late. You just never know. It's been great debating with you all and i thank you because there were a lot of things i didn't exactly know with what was going on, so you gave me the knowledge as to what some people think. Especially you Arkacia ;). It's getting late so I'm gonna head to bed. ttyl.

[ender1626]

This is a hard topic for me to comment on. As far as i am concerened there is one God, the God. Having been a non-denominational christian for about 2 years now there are certain things i know and certain thingd i dont. I would like to believe in creation. but there are certain things that make eolution seem right. Then again how can something like the universe just appear out of no where? Believeing in God also seems to explaine where certain ruins came from since we have no proof of aliens. So for now i am leaning toward creatin.

[cubez]

evolution, as ther is more profe of evolution than creation

[the_dude3]

Dang it! Oh well, whatever, I guess I'll go back for a couple more... ender1626, FINALLY another person i can relate to at least somewhat, except for the evolution part you are talking about. In what parts would evolution fit in where God doesn't? Oh yeah and cubez, don't make such a statement without some sort of back-up. You gotta give reasons why or something, so I'll ask you this... What proof?

[snowboardchk]

I BELIEVE IN CREATION!!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!! I dont understand how people could actually believe in evolution??? :confused: oh well.......I really suggest that some of you guys try being a christian because when you follow the rules of God it just makes you a whole lot happier :D I feel great being a christian( sorry if that sounds corny) BUT IT REALLY DOES!!!!!!!! :angel1:

[Emptydeath]

The reason im not christian is because theres not enough proof sure jesus was there but can we prove he did anything it all might have just been a hoax and the bible was just written up by some guy (the name slipps my mind right now) im not saying christianity is a dead end religion i just want to know WERE'S THE PROOF!

[yarnellcg17]

I see some good contructive debate so far in this thread :)

I also see there is alot to learn on both Creation and Evolution..

[Emptydeath]

Very true ive looked into both sides of it maney times infact i did a school reserch project for Louis Leaky this man discovered that there were infact different species of unevolved humans in early stages this therefore proving that there's some sort of evolutionary process i also think that there is some sort of greater being behind all this and thats were creation comes in so all im saying is that evolution and creation can be combined into one.

[JsWoman]

I know that evolution is true, but everything had to be created at one point, and that's where God was. In the beginning I think everything was created, and we've evolved from that time. Just hoping that humans don't become extinct until long after I die.

[snowboardchk]

Ummm....actually they can't be fit into one because the bible says that in the beginning God created the world in 7 days and in thoughs seven days got created man, soooo it would be going against the bible and everything in the bible is true.... sooo ya :rolleyes:

[Emptydeath]

Ummm....actually they can't be fit into one because the bible says that in the beginning God created the world in 7 days and in thoughs seven days got created man, soooo it would be going against the bible and everything in the bible is true.... sooo ya :rolleyes:

Can you prove everythng in the bible was true like i said in my last post a man created the bible not jesus or god so how could he know all that back then storys were past down generation to generation and everytime that happens the story is altered

[phantomullet]

Can you prove everythng in the bible was true like i said in my last post a man created the bible not jesus or god so how could he know all that back then storys were past down generation to generation and everytime that happens the story is altered

Actually, the Bible was written by several people, so it wasn't necessarily passed down by word of mouth, however parts of it could have been altered when it was translated into different laguages. Also, many Christians believe that God wrote the Bible through the different people who physically wrote it.

[Emptydeath]

Actually, the Bible was written by several people, so it wasn't necessarily passed down by word of mouth, however parts of it could have been altered when it was translated into different laguages. Also, many Christians believe that God wrote the Bible through the different people who physically wrote it.



That is a good point i forgot how maney people helped create the bible and you right about some of those christian belifs but i need solid prove which no one has been able to provide

[snowboardchk]

Like what kind of solid proof do you need? :confused: Evolution deosn't have solid proof either.... plus I watched a documentary on how they might have found Noah's Ark in some mountains....That's a lot of solid proof :D

[the_dude3]

That is a good point i forgot how maney people helped create the bible and you right about some of those christian belifs but i need solid prove which no one has been able to provide

Hehe here we go again... Anyway Emptydeath, let me ask you this question. How in the world did the natural laws of science come into play? What made them? I'm sure that chance couldn't have popped that one out. Not in any of my research has any scientist been able to explain that to me in any document that I have read. Please tell me, and if you cant well I have more proof for you...

[the_dude3]

I know that evolution is true, but everything had to be created at one point, and that's where God was. In the beginning I think everything was created, and we've evolved from that time. Just hoping that humans don't become extinct until long after I die.

OK what are you talking about JsWoman? Where do you get the belief that God created us and let us evolve? I don't see any proof of that in the Bible and humans won't become extinct. We weren't just created and then left to rot. Don't you know anything about any of the end times prophecies? I'm sorry but I see a critical error on what you believe to be true about how God created us. Doesn't it say that God created everything in six days? Doesnt it say that on the sixth day God created Adam and Eve along with all the creatures that lived and have lived on this earth all in one day? Could you explain to me where you got this belief?

[yarnellcg17]

OK what are you talking about JsWoman? Where do you get the belief that God created us and let us evolve? I don't see any proof of that in the Bible and humans won't become extinct. We weren't just created and then left to rot. Don't you know anything about any of the end times prophecies? I'm sorry but I see a critical error on what you believe to be true about how God created us. Doesn't it say that God created everything in six days? Doesnt it say that on the sixth day God created Adam and Eve along with all the creatures that lived and have lived on this earth all in one day? Could you explain to me where you got this belief?

As far as humans becoming extinct..it could be well beyond our lifetime for that to occur..But!! we do live in age where we Humans can very well make that happen without a moments notice with all the Nuke Weapons we have all over this Planet.. So I say the power of Man can be just as powerful as the Power of God when it comes to an end time on Earth..We may just ourselves beat anything said in the Book of Revelations to the punch.. So who will destroy whom..not God..but Man himself will ultimately..

And whether it was God who made us all or Evolution that did..One thing does stand clear..We humans have evolved over time..So in all of that..Did God actually know how evolved we would become..were we even suppose to evolve at all??

[the_dude3]

As far as humans becoming extinct..it could be well beyond our lifetime for that to occur..But!! we do live in age where we Humans can very well make that happen without a moments notice with all the Nuke Weapons we have all over this Planet.. So I say the power of Man can be just as powerful as the Power of God when it comes to an end time on Earth..We may just ourselves beat anything said in the Book of Revelations to the punch.. So who will destroy whom..not God..but Man himself will ultimately..

And whether it was God who made us all or Evolution that did..One thing does stand clear..We humans have evolved over time..So in all of that..Did God actually know how evolved we would become..were we even suppose to evolve at all??

Yarnell it is infact possible that we could as humans blow ourselves up with nuclear weapons, but who in their right mind would do such a thing? Everyone's so afraid of death and the other people that aren't and want to kill everyone except for their own kind dont have enough weapons to do so.

OK evolution does not stand clear at all Yarnell. Plus, God knows EVERYTHING. That's why they call him omniscient. Evolution definitely has many certain qualities and aspects that bring down the whole theory to the ground in its fight with creation. If you want me to argue my case again, then please ask me to and I will. Either that or just leave it alone.

[Emptydeath]

Alright The dude 3 you want solid proof of evolution like i said before Louis leaky found evolving humans at different evolutionary steps the reason that humans havent evolved in thousands of years is because in our society humans have to be perfectly semetrical and perfect if a baby is born with an extra finger its cut off because docters have no idea if its a genetic glitch or an evolutinary step so just to be on the safe side they cut it off

Also you were watching a documentary about the might have found the famous noahs arch the key word there is might there is no proof of that there were many boats made at that time so the traces they found were most likely another boat because noahs arch dident exist :mad: there is no Solid proof of god!!!!!!!!!!

Id like to say that science has found an explaination for god god is a piece of matter and anti matter that made contact with each other exploding(The big bang theory) and created the universe this also includes the theory of a parrellel universe its a little of the wall but its a good concept

[the_dude3]

Alright The dude 3 you want solid proof of evolution like i said before Louis leaky found evolving humans at different evolutionary steps the reason that humans havent evolved in thousands of years is because in our society humans have to be perfectly semetrical and perfect if a baby is born with an extra finger its cut off because docters have no idea if its a genetic glitch or an evolutinary step so just to be on the safe side they cut it off

Also you were watching a documentary about the might have found the famous noahs arch the key word there is might there is no proof of that there were many boats made at that time so the traces they found were most likely another boat because noahs arch dident exist :mad: there is no Solid proof of god!!!!!!!!!!

Id like to say that science has found an explaination for god god is a piece of matter and anti matter that made contact with each other exploding(The big bang theory) and created the universe this also includes the theory of a parrellel universe its a little of the wall but its a good concept

Fossils like that I consider not evidence of evolution, but evidence of creation. Besides do you know how many times his so-called "dated" fossils were actually rejected until people probably just got fed up with him and finally threw him a bone? Those fossils are very much proof of people living to older ages. Let me explain to you first that don't you notice that when people get really old, the back of their head starts to grow out and the boney part above your eyes, which is the bone that's underneath your eyebrows is, starts to grow out as well. Now let's think for a second about what the neanderthal fossil looks like. Strangely enough, the boney part above the eyes and the back of it's head is grown out. Now with this this in mind, let's talk about the Bible for a bit. The Bible says that Noah lived to be about 900 years old and that many people back in the days before the flood, lived to be at least 500-600 years old and even longer than that. Just put the pieces together and you'll figure it out.

Oh yeah I've also heard about Noah's ark being somewhere. It was supposedly located on or near the top of Mount Ararat, which is territory that is governed either by the Turkish people or i forget, but somewhere in that vicinity. Nobody can go up there except for government officials from that place and gee, I wonder why?? And since the majority of that country is Muslim, I'm sure they wouldn't want anyone finding out about it. Just think about all the fuss there would be between the Christian and Muslim religions.

Ok I don't even know why scientists would even think of the big bang theory as being possible at all, but probably because no one has thought up of anything smarter to say, but whatev. Yeah I have a question for you, another one actually, and you still didn't answer my first one either. Where did all of this matter and anti-matter come from? It couldn't have just popped out of nowhere. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[snowboardchk]

Actually ya they did find Noah's Ark and it did and DOES EXIST!!!!!!! They found it on Mt.Ararat. The boat they found was HUGE and there were stalls in it for animals. It also is made out of the same rare wood that Noah built it with. They would take it out of the mountain but it is too high up and it's in a treacherous area. :angel1:

[Emptydeath]

Fossils like that I consider not evidence of evolution, but evidence of creation. Besides do you know how many times his so-called "dated" fossils were actually rejected until people probably just got fed up with him and finally threw him a bone? Those fossils are very much proof of people living to older ages. Let me explain to you first that don't you notice that when people get really old, the back of their head starts to grow out and the boney part above your eyes, which is the bone that's underneath your eyebrows is, starts to grow out as well. Now let's think for a second about what the neanderthal fossil looks like. Strangely enough, the boney part above the eyes and the back of it's head is grown out. Now with this this in mind, let's talk about the Bible for a bit. The Bible says that Noah lived to be about 900 years old and that many people back in the days before the flood, lived to be at least 500-600 years old and even longer than that. Just put the pieces together and you'll figure it out.

Oh yeah I've also heard about Noah's ark being somewhere. It was supposedly located on or near the top of Mount Ararat, which is territory that is governed either by the Turkish people or i forget, but somewhere in that vicinity. Nobody can go up there except for government officials from that place and gee, I wonder why?? And since the majority of that country is Muslim, I'm sure they wouldn't want anyone finding out about it. Just think about all the fuss there would be between the Christian and Muslim religions.

Ok I don't even know why scientists would even think of the big bang theory as being possible at all, but probably because no one has thought up of anything smarter to say, but whatev. Yeah I have a question for you, another one actually, and you still didn't answer my first one either. Where did all of this matter and anti-matter come from? It couldn't have just popped out of nowhere. It just doesn't make sense to me.



okay first of all they may have found a giant boat in that mountian but if they did has anyone been able to prove that there were stalls for animals in it if no one has been able to go up there but muslem government officialsand if they really did belive that it was noahs arch and they dident want anyone to know about it why dident they just rid the evidence.

On a different subject the fossils found by louis leakey were not based on the stereotypical thoughts of what the caveman looked like from what you posted earlier these were concidered early humans from there bone structer and mass

and when you were talking about were the matter and antimatter came from thats why some people belive its god i mean think about it were did god come from can you answer that .

[Arkacia]

Umm, no they didn't find any ark on Mt Ararat. They found a bow shaped snow covered rock that looked like a ship in photographs. There is no evidence of any ship on the mountain and any info that says otherwise is either outright lying, or operating on wishful thinking.

If you are talking about this as evidence for the ark, its been revealed, and admitted to by one of the paticipants, as a hoax...

The Jammal Ark Hoax (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax/jammal.html)

The reason the Turkish government has stopped explorations on Mt Ararat is because too many people were injuring themselves climbing the mountain. Its not the easiest in the world to climb. They were afraid of international incidents and law suits. Turkey is a secular nation and its government don't operate under muslim law, so the religious arguements don't apply.

[the_dude3]

Ok I have now done actual research on the Noah's Ark subject and found out that indeed it could have been a hoax, but there is a man by the name of Ron Wyatt who claims he has infact found evidence. He WAS associated with Jon Morris who also claimed he took part in the hoax, but only in the cases of rock testing. Another man by the name of Clifford Burdick helped Wyatt out too. Rock testing was also his way of helping out. I have a website for you if it means anything. It's Ron Wyatt's website about the Ark discovery. I don't exactly know if he's very credible or not, but if you could help me out and look into it, I appreciate it. Please try to be on both sides of the case instead of your own. I looked him up and it wasn't good exactly, but the website didn't give any names of the scientists who they checked with, so I'm a little skeptical on that. Here's the URL... http://www.arkdiscovery.com

Ok now, I also denounce my thoughts on the government of Turkey, seeing as Wyatt was allowed to visit the procalimed sight. He did although encounter insurgents that told him that he was unallowed to visit a site that he wanted to for a period of time.

Emptydeath, in the Bible it says that God always was, is, and forever shall be. That means that he has always been here, ever since the beginning of time and before that. There was nothing before him. Ever. I know that you can't wrap your mind around that one, because no one can. It also means that he will be for all eternity. Also what ur talking about with the fossils...That's my point! The bone structure matches my description of the people that used to live back in the days of Noah. Silly rabbit, trix are for kids...

[Arkacia]

I did try to be objective when looking into this so didn't worry about looking at the ark find itself, but focused on the finder instead. I'm afraid I believe he is a full on fraud.

Tentmaker (http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/)
Worldofthebible.com (http://www.ldolphin.org/wyatt.html)

Those two sites pretty much sum up the non-religious, and in some cases religious, views of this man and his supposed discoveries. They also have documentation (letters) ect from some of those involved, and plenty of suggestions for further research.

In my mind, if Noah's ark had really been discovered and authenticated, it would be huge news and all over the news and TV world wide, like the dead sea scrols were in their time. I'd never heard of this until reading it yesterday after seeing snowboardchk's post and doing some searching of my own.

The rock I mentioned isn't conneted with this. It is sticking out of the side of the mountain high up above the snow line and has been photographed since the 70s at least.

I'd have no problem with Noah's ark, or other artifacts from the bible being found. I've never said the bible is totally wrong. I just don't believe in the God it's written around or the creation myths, miracles ect included in it.

I do believe some of the historical peoples and stories from the bible, like Noah and the flood, may have actually existed/happened and the stories about them were passed down the generations as oral stories before being written down by the bible authors. Like any story passed orally, things change with each telling and I strongly suspect the story in the bible bears little resemblance to the actual events.

The thing with the flood is I don't believe it was world wide because there is no evidence in Australia of any nation wide extreme flood event. I do believe it is a race memory of ancient peoples from the middle east area about the flooding of the Mediterranean or Black sea's.

To me, finding the ark will just prove the ark existed, not that the biblical story woven around it is true so I don't have a vested interest in disproving its existance. What I do want though is proper evidence and not by someone(s) faking things. Surely thats not too much to ask .

I think it would be truely amazing and exciting if this old boat ever does turn up, not to mention a golden opportunity to learn about ancient peoples and their way of life (I have a love of ancient history):).

[the_dude3]

Yeah I agree with you on the subjects of the hoax definitely because you're right, if it was actually the REAL ark then of course it would be worldwide news. Greed is an evil thing...

About the worldwide flood thing though. I heard through my Earth Science teacher a while ago that there was actually evidence for a large scale flood, maybe even worldwide. I guess scientists have found fossils of ocean-dwelling creatures such as starfish in very strange places, like in the middle of Russia, where there is no body of water to be found for miles. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's definitely intriuging. But yeah anyway, thanks for looking that up for me. I don't have much time to do research and stuff since I am still a student and have butt loads of homework to do pretty much every night. So yeah...

[Emptydeath]

This whole ark thing is besides the point in the evolution verses creation question what really matters are key facts like whats not in the bible that should for instance why doesent it say anything about dinousaurs they never speck once about them in the bible and they have been proven indeed to exist also about the fossils thing the bone structure was altered quite a bit just type in louis leakey in the google images section youl find tones of picks of completely altered skulls

[the_dude3]

Ok Emptydeath you obviously know nothing of the Bible because there are many verses mentioning dinosaurs just to name a few...
Job 40:15-24
Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1

[Emptydeath]

First of all in job it speaks of a behemoth which isent a dinousaur but a mithical creature that no one has found a fossil off psalm 25 and 26 speak nothing of dinousaurs quote:Yonder the sea is great and wide creeping things innumeral are there there go the ships and leviathan that formed to sport in it

a leviathan is another mithical sea dragon which knowone has found proof of
and in isaiah they speak more of the leviathan and sais it is a serpent and a dragon

[the_dude3]

Emptydeath, I have an article for you to read dealing with dinosaurs being in the Bible. I think you'll like it ;)

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/answersbook/dinosaurs19.asp

[Emptydeath]

Once again this source rattled off the same verses that you did and it cannot be proven that these things related to dinousaurs exept to those with a creative mind its only a theory these verses have anything to do with dinousaurs in my theory they are just medaphors to the same animals we have today when the bible says beast it could mean lion when it says behemoth it could mean gorilla all im sayig is theres know way to be sure

[the_dude3]

Once again this source rattled off the same verses that you did and it cannot be proven that these things related to dinousaurs exept to those with a creative mind its only a theory these verses have anything to do with dinousaurs in my theory they are just medaphors to the same animals we have today when the bible says beast it could mean lion when it says behemoth it could mean gorilla all im sayig is theres know way to be sure

OK in the Bible, when it says a tail thats as big as a cedar. COME ON!!!! What else could it be!? How can you be so ignorant!? I could say the exact same thing about all of the evolutionist opinions on fossils and such. No one can actually PROVE that Neanderthals were actually neanderthals because when sculptors make the so-called "bodies" and "facial structures" through the casts of the fossils, they are just making it through their interpretation, so it's not actually what the real thing looked like. Same with all of the dinosaur structures you see today. For alll we know, they could have been purple and had eyes on their butts, just with no skeletal prtection for them. Besides that, those people didn't live anywhere near gorillas or the like, so however you may try to "reason" this, you still can't make any sense out of it if you truly think about what you are saying.

[Emptydeath]

good point no matter how we inturprate somthing it can come back to bite us this just proves this case will never bee solved

[Playedafool]

Mumm, to me there is no answer other than creation. People who believe in evolution think we came from monkeys or evolved but I ask you where did the monkeys come from? God created all creratures and including humans & from there He sent Christ to die for fallen men, ( us sinners. ) People who say there is no God in my opinion are afraid to admit there is a God , knowing they well have to answer to Him.
Evil & good excist , God & statan & creation ! I believe there is a God & I believe in Him if I'm wrong I still have nothing to fear I am %100 safe either way but if there is a God & you dom't believe you are only %50 covered, in my opinion I would rather the odds of be %100 covered. So in my opinion creation over wins over evolution!

Playedafool? I think not:angel1:

[Arkacia]

Mumm, to me there is no answer other than creation. People who believe in evolution think we came from monkeys or evolved but I ask you where did the monkeys come from? God created all creratures and including humans & from there He sent Christ to die for fallen men, ( us sinners. ) People who say there is no God in my opinion are afraid to admit there is a God , knowing they well have to answer to Him.
Evil & good excist , God & statan & creation ! I believe there is a God & I believe in Him if I'm wrong I still have nothing to fear I am %100 safe either way but if there is a God & you dom't believe you are only %50 covered, in my opinion I would rather the odds of be %100 covered. So in my opinion creation over wins over evolution!

Playedafool? I think not:angel1:

Like a lot of creation believers, you fell for the "we came from monkeys" rubbish. Darwin never said that and evolution supporters do not think that. The theory is apes (not monkeys) and humans decended from a common ancestor that was neither ape or human. Where did that ancestor come from? It evolved from earlier forms, like all animals on this planet did.

I'll make a deal with you. Prove to me 100% that a god or gods really exist, and I want proper pyhsical proof, not just words in a book or the tired old eye arguement, and I may give creation some credence. Until then, I'll go on siding with science and the proof they have found to back up evolution. Is it perfectly complete proof, no, but its a lot more than the creation can offer. Until you can prove your deity exists, you can't prove creation ever happened.

Do you know that the Catholic church is now teaching evolution in its schools and has finally accepted it does have more credence than creation. They haven't entirely let go of creation yet, but are leaning that way. They believe that the body evolved, but god made the soul.

[yarnellcg17]

No..we never came from monkeys..but I do believe we were once prehistoric...and we are the most modern form of evolution ever to be had or found...Look at all of what has been found..North America..Europe..and all the other Continents on Earth..if Creationists want to think God made those..than go right ahead..cause they weren't made mentioned in the Bible..and if anything were to be the Gospel in the Bible..than it would have been mentioned as well in the Bible...I'm in the mood to go a bit further..but I will wait til the Dude sees this 1st..get some input that he has..than I will go full phrase..with what I believe...

[snowboardchk]

I agree with Playedafool 100% :) because I know that God does exist and if he doesn't oh well I lived an inoccent and happy life. When you give your heart to the lord you get a feeling inside of you that is just unexplainable (well for me at least). The feeling is just so joyful and pure you feel like you could take on any problem that the world throws at you and I know that for sure you probably would never feel that way if you have not given your heart to the lord. I'm not saying that everyone feels this way but this is just what happened to me through my experience when I decided to give my heart to the lord.

[the_dude3]

Like a lot of creation believers, you fell for the "we came from monkeys" rubbish. Darwin never said that and evolution supporters do not think that. The theory is apes (not monkeys) and humans decended from a common ancestor that was neither ape or human. Where did that ancestor come from? It evolved from earlier forms, like all animals on this planet did.

I'll make a deal with you. Prove to me 100% that a god or gods really exist, and I want proper pyhsical proof, not just words in a book or the tired old eye arguement, and I may give creation some credence. Until then, I'll go on siding with science and the proof they have found to back up evolution. Is it perfectly complete proof, no, but its a lot more than the creation can offer. Until you can prove your deity exists, you can't prove creation ever happened.

Do you know that the Catholic church is now teaching evolution in its schools and has finally accepted it does have more credence than creation. They haven't entirely let go of creation yet, but are leaning that way. They believe that the body evolved, but god made the soul.

Oh boy...here we go again hehe. Arkacia I'm sure you know well exactly what he means even though he might say that "evolutionists think that we came from monkeys". Even so, if that isn't true, then why do evolutionists or darwinians or whatever, like to show their little progression diagram that shows a small ape-like creature that looks like a chimpanzie go to ape and then eventually to human or neanderthal form?

In your second paragraph you say you want proper physical proof. Now I am going to reiterate something I said a while back when we first started this arguement. Just think about the CHANCE that evolution would happen and how we would be here. Think about all of the little tiny processes in every living organisms body and think about all the little organelles inside those processes and then tell me this all happened by chance. Even if one feature were to be evolved every year, evolution still could not cover the vast area of different types of features all the living organisms have in the world. Plus, all of these features would have to properly suit the organism so it could live and carry on. Also just imagine if you will, how the organisms of the world would have figured out how to reproduce sexually. Sure there are asexual organisms out there but the majority bigger than a few hundred microns reproduce by way of the birds and the bees. Another thing would include the way they would have figured out how to breathe and eat and sleep and whether or not they needed to and how they figured out pain was bad. Things like this make you wonder and think outside the box of what the evolutionist has to offer. Sure they say they have proof, but is it credible? Sure they might have graduated from Yale or Harvard but I know, that a lot of times with great knowledge, comes great ignorance.

Going with the Catholic church thing your talking about, I don't mean to offend Catholics, but the only one that truly understands or actually understood the ways of Christ was Pope John Paul. A lot of times I hear about catholics who drink, do drugs, and give in to other "pleasures" of the world so I don't really think of them as true Christians sometimes. Often they are the ones who believe in god and go to church every sunday, and are more of a borderline christian, but they don't actually experience the full throttle of the Christian religion. So that's why they might be mixing the two thoughts on how we got here.

Yarnell the Bible does actually mention North America and other such places. I've heard it been called "the West" but i know that is very open for discussion as to what it actually is so I will do a little research and find that out for you.

As for Playedafool and the other person, may Christ shine in your life as much as the chrome on Mike Jones's teeth.

[Arkacia]

Sorry dude, my post was aimed soley at Playedafool and was in response to the idea that I don't believe in god(s) because I'm scared of him/her/it or something like that. I was just a bit peeved to have my beliefs dismissed like that, so was trying to put it back on him/her so they could get an idea of how it feels ;).

Only problem with that is to be scared of god(s) in any way would mean I have to believe there is one, and if I believe there is one then I would be an agnostic, not an atheist. If that makes sense. The last paragraph where he/she said that belief in god covers a persons butt at death "just in case" kinda irritated me too.

Sorry if it got to you, believe me, you weren't the target :).

[the_dude3]

Sorry dude, my post was aimed soley at Playedafool and was in response to the idea that I don't believe in god(s) because I'm scared of him/her/it or something like that. I was just a bit peeved to have my beliefs dismissed like that, so was trying to put it back on him/her so they could get an idea of how it feels ;).

Only problem with that is to be scared of god(s) in any way would mean I have to believe there is one, and if I believe there is one then I would be an agnostic, not an atheist. If that makes sense. The last paragraph where he/she said that belief in god covers a persons butt at death "just in case" kinda irritated me too.

Sorry if it got to you, believe me, you weren't the target :).

Hehe yeah aight that's ok I can see where you're coming from and it's a good point too. I'm sure he might not have meant it to be offending but who knows, ya know? hehe

[Playedafool]

Hi there again!
What I said in my last message was my opinion and I think thats what I gave just that, The Fact Is I Believe In The Written Word From God! Not a god but The one and only true God that created the earth and humans. I am not saying science is all wrong , alot of the sciences were christians.
As for believeing in God and accepting Him as your Saviour that is the main stay of the Bible John 3:16.
I well not say anymore on this subject because the Lord says Himself not to argue His word. His word is there for all who will accept it and creation is the beginning.
God bless & we well all know for sure the answer at the time of death!

Playedafool, I think not!

[Emptydeath]

alright this is a little of the evolution vs creation topic but this right here proves that the bible is just a bunch of random storys written by people over the centurys alright if god created adam and eve then the had to have sex to create the civilization we have now and that was gods purpose but to create this civilization they had to commit incest of which god forbids how is this to be explained tell me:mad:

[the_dude3]

alright this is a little of the evolution vs creation topic but this right here proves that the bible is just a bunch of random storys written by people over the centurys alright if god created adam and eve then the had to have sex to create the civilization we have now and that was gods purpose but to create this civilization they had to commit incest of which god forbids how is this to be explained tell me:mad:

Amen Playedafool!!!!!!!!! Man, i love to see fellow christains on this site :) and that is entirely true what u just said there dude. It is through God's wonderful grace that we're saved and stuff, but some people need more than just that. They need logic to back up their beliefs and that's what I'm here for so yeah...

Emptydeath, yes it is true that incest was part of the beginning and up until there was enough people to go into separate families and not that of your own, then God named it a sin. Trust me He knows whats goin on dude. Oh yeah the Bible isn't full of just a buncha random stories if that's what ur thinkin. Big, big, big, error. I guarantee you there is not one contradiction in the Bible when you take a look at the various stories inside of it. Just take a look...

[tombombadom]

:eek:How the F*** could you post a question like that:eek:although i personaly think we were not created there is no righ tor wrong answer to this question so why put it up in the first-place your just trying to make conflict arnt you? Anyway i see your game and like it so i congratulate you on your ultimate question

[Arkacia]

The question was posted because (and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but will give an educated guess) the thread starter was interested in the opinions of others on this subject, and wanted to open a debate on it. That is what this forum if for.

It is a topical subject considering the resurgence of religion in the west, and the ongoing debate about teaching creation/evolution in schools in the US.

This thread wasn't started as a troll/flame thread, and would have been closed very quickly if it had degenerated into that. Instead, dispite the strong opinions expressed by supporters of both sides, it has stayed very civil and some very interesting points have been raised.

[the_dude3]

Yup. arkacia pretty much hit the nail on the head. I started this because I knew that throughout my life people would come up to me ask questions and raise points like the ones led in the discussion and I wanted to learn how, or gain the knowledge to back it up. So yeah...hehe look at what I've done!!

[fungirl189]

I beleive in God and in the Bible because I was raised in a Christian home and have had God reavealed to me many times in my life and also in my familys lives. I would like to ask you a few questions though.
Why does Venus rotate a different way then all of the other planets? Only God could have done that because if evolution happened all the planets would rotate the same way!!!
Why are there still fish and apes and frogs in the world if evolutin is true???
Why have they found chariot wheels in the Red Sea from when Pharoahs army came after Moses after God had opened up the Red Sea for Moses and his people and the Red Sea came spalshing down on the army???
There are many other things that I could go on saying but I am getting myself worked up about this and I should probably stop!!:)

[Oneness]

Give reasons to why you either believe in evolution or creation. I know this is a very touchy subject so give the best you got to prove either of the two.
creation. Because it is true. :)

Like a lot of creation believers, you fell for the "we came from monkeys" rubbish. Darwin never said that and evolution supporters do not think that. The theory is apes (not monkeys) and humans decended from a common ancestor that was neither ape or human. Where did that ancestor come from? It evolved from earlier forms, like all animals on this planet did.

I'll make a deal with you. Prove to me 100% that a god or gods really exist, and I want proper pyhsical proof, not just words in a book or the tired old eye arguement, and I may give creation some credence. Until then, I'll go on siding with science and the proof they have found to back up evolution. Is it perfectly complete proof, no, but its a lot more than the creation can offer. Until you can prove your deity exists, you can't prove creation ever happened.

Do you know that the Catholic church is now teaching evolution in its schools and has finally accepted it does have more credence than creation. They haven't entirely let go of creation yet, but are leaning that way. They believe that the body evolved, but god made the soul.
The catholic church does a lot of things that aren't biblical...

I don't believe in God, and never will, so I don't believe in creation. Pure and simple.


Never say never. There are a lot of Christians who were former hard core atheists. You asked for proof...*I* can't give you that...God can, however, if you're truly willing to see it.

[Arkacia]

The Catholic church is the original christian church, and laid the foundations that all christian denominations are built on. What exactly do you mean that they do lots of things that "aren't biblical"? I admire the fact they are trying to bring the church into the 21st century and preserve their teachings at the same time. At least they were under the last Pope, who is the only religious person ever that I truly respect for the great work he did to open up the church and improve its image.

God can't give me "proof", because there is no God. It doesn't exist.

[the_dude3]

The Catholic church is the original christian church, and laid the foundations that all christian denominations are built on. What exactly do you mean that they do lots of things that "aren't biblical"? I admire the fact they are trying to bring the church into the 21st century and preserve their teachings at the same time. At least they were under the last Pope, who is the only religious person ever that I truly respect for the great work he did to open up the church and improve its image.

God can't give me "proof", because there is no God. It doesn't exist.

True the Catholic church started the original Christian church, but the founder of the Catholic church never meant it to get so out of hand as far as rituals and diverging from what the Bible says God's church should be...

From molesting children to (i know this might sound really bad but it's a sin in the Bible) supporting gay marriage. Even having homosexuals as pastors... If u need verses pertaining to homosexuality in the Bible I'd be happy to post them in my next post if u so desire...Also church is not supposed to be as boring as the Catholic church makes it seem... Church is supposed to be like what it's portrayed in the movies Dairy of a Mad Black Woman or the Blues Brothers.

God is REAL!!! don't fo-git it... John 3:16...

[Arkacia]

You make it sound like abusing children is part of the Catholic church doctrine. It isn't of course, only a very small percentage of the clergy are responsible for that, and it certainly isn't condoned.

The Catholic church doesn't hold the monopoly on child sex abuse either. The other side are just as guilty and responsible. Some links for you to look at..

Anglican church in Australia (http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html)
Protestant churches in the US (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html)
More from the US (http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2006/04/the_epidemic_of.php)

I'm not in the slightest saying that the abuse in the Catholic church isn't totally reprehensible and the people responsible don't belong in jail, they certainly do, but Prodestants are just as gulity of this henious crime as well.

The gay bit really threw me. The Catholics don't support gay marriage or gay priests. That is the Proddy church too. In fact the current pope recently came out firmly against gay clergy ever being accepted into the church. I don't know about the US, but the Catholic church leaders here in Aust are some of the most outspoken religious people standing against the very idea of legalising gay marriage. More reading for you...

Anglicans in Australia accept gay clergy (http://couriermail.news.com.au/story/0,20797,19771260-952,00.html)
Gay Anglican bishop blasts Catholics for not accepting gay priests (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4411442.stm)
Pope says no (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/23/wgay23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/09/23/ixportal.html)
Gay marriage in Spain (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=NYTFKEDMSFD33QFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2005/04/23/wgay23.xml)

I know it is the practice of some Proddy churches to demonise the Catholics, don't know why, but it looks to me much the same as what all christian churches were doing to the Jews not that long ago when they were accusing them of poisoning wells and sacrificing gentile babies. You all worship the same god for petes sake. Along with the Jews and Muslims I might add :p.

[the_dude3]

You make it sound like abusing children is part of the Catholic church doctrine. It isn't of course, only a very small percentage of the clergy are responsible for that, and it certainly isn't condoned.

The Catholic church doesn't hold the monopoly on child sex abuse either. The other side are just as guilty and responsible. Some links for you to look at..

Anglican church in Australia (http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html)
Protestant churches in the US (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html)
More from the US (http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2006/04/the_epidemic_of.php)

I'm not in the slightest saying that the abuse in the Catholic church isn't totally reprehensible and the people responsible don't belong in jail, they certainly do, but Prodestants are just as gulity of this henious crime as well.

The gay bit really threw me. The Catholics don't support gay marriage or gay priests. That is the Proddy church too. In fact the current pope recently came out firmly against gay clergy ever being accepted into the church. I don't know about the US, but the Catholic church leaders here in Aust are some of the most outspoken religious people standing against the very idea of legalising gay marriage. More reading for you...

Anglicans in Australia accept gay clergy (http://couriermail.news.com.au/story/0,20797,19771260-952,00.html)
Gay Anglican bishop blasts Catholics for not accepting gay priests (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4411442.stm)
Pope says no (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/23/wgay23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/09/23/ixportal.html)
Gay marriage in Spain (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=NYTFKEDMSFD33QFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ 0IV0?xml=/news/2005/04/23/wgay23.xml)

I know it is the practice of some Proddy churches to demonise the Catholics, don't know why, but it looks to me much the same as what all christian churches were doing to the Jews not that long ago when they were accusing them of poisoning wills and sacrificing gentile babies. You all worship the same god for petes sake. Along with the Jews and Muslims I might add :p.

A lot of this stuff I was unaware of and thank you for clarifying that for me. Most of the things I hear come from the news and the news mainly reports on the Catholic church being that way. So far the only reports i've heard are about the catholic church so that's where my thinking comes from. I don't know how these people ever got into being church leaders, but they definitely should not be any part of the church. Unless they were to try to get help for themselves for the problems they've caused, or about to cause, then I'd say sure they can be given a second chance.

I wasn't trying to make it sound like Catholic church doctrine if I did. Sorry for throwing you off if I did. All i was saying is that it seemed to me there is a lot of corruption in the Catholic church because of the reports I've been hearing on the news like I said before.

Another thing I'd like to add is that the pope can say one thing and the Catholic church will do another. What I'm getting at here is that the pope cannot speak for Catholism as a whole because wasn't it a Catholic church who first married gay couples in San Francisco? I don't exactly know so I would like to recieve some info on that if you would be so kind as to research that for me.

Hehe I know we all worship the same God, but people are silly and have different opinions on what way the Bible should be taken into consideration, which is poopy, but whatever...Oh yeah, Judaism and the religion of Islam versus Christianity are way different. Being that for one, we believe Jesus is the only way to get into heaven and two, we don't have to do silly things like not eat pork or grow really long beards. tee hee

[Arkacia]

Yeah, I know about the differences between the three main one god religions concerning messiahs, prophets ect. The core thing that links all three of you though is god himself, and all three religions worship the god of Abraham. So you do all worship the same god, then branch off into your different texts, ideas ect. The Muslims think Christians are wrong for not accepting Mohammed, and the Jews think you are both balmy for accepting either :).

I don't know much about the Catholic church in the US, probably because I don't live there :p, but will have a look into what you said about the gay marriage in SF and edit this post later today if I find anything.

The pope is head of the Catholic church, and what he decides becomes church policy and is passed down to all members. This church is no more corrupt than any other, just look at the proddy evangilists who pretend to heal people ect just for money for example. All large organisations suffer from corruption. I think the only reason the Catholic church is the focus of so much media attention is because of its very conservative views on so many issues that make it an easy target.

Have you noticed the irony of this conversation. Me, a diehard atheist, defending a Christian church. I'll never live this down :D.

EDIT: Found some info on gay marriage and the Catholic church in San Francisco. The Catholic church is not marrying gays, and in fact has come out strongly against it. The furour seems to be because the Mayor, a practising Catholic, supports same sex civil unions.

Pacific News Service (http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=e4c85cadc56d78e75696c c043266b7d0)

[Oneness]

The Catholic church is the original christian church, and laid the foundations that all christian denominations are built on. What exactly do you mean that they do lots of things that "aren't biblical"? I admire the fact they are trying to bring the church into the 21st century and preserve their teachings at the same time. At least they were under the last Pope, who is the only religious person ever that I truly respect for the great work he did to open up the church and improve its image.

God can't give me "proof", because there is no God. It doesn't exist.

Actually, no, the RCC didn't start the original church. That was Jesus and the apostles. The RCC didn't show up for another 300 years or so.

If you're really interested in the things about the RCC that aren't biblical, I can expound.

Can you prove there is no God? Do you have proof? Didn't think so. You don't believe He exists, but you really don't know, do you?

[Arkacia]

Actually, no, the RCC didn't start the original church. That was Jesus and the apostles. The RCC didn't show up for another 300 years or so.

If you're really interested in the things about the RCC that aren't biblical, I can expound.

Can you prove there is no God? Do you have proof? Didn't think so. You don't believe He exists, but you really don't know, do you?
Actually, they were the original christian church. The first pope is believed to be the apostle Peter. The time around 300 years later was just when it was accepted for the first time as the official church of the Roman Empire and recieved the name it is know as today.

Roman Catholicism (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/roman_catholicism.html)

Jesus really had nothing much to do with the founding of the early church. If he did exist as written in the bible (and I'm not convinced he did, there is talk that the character of Jesus is a combination of the stories of several reformers/prophets living in the area around that time) then he was born, cirucumcised, lived and died a jew. Like Martain Luther much later on, Jesus was a reformer who wanted his own religion to shape up. The christian church has its own roots firmly in Judaism. I read somewhere that the first 24 books of the christian bible are lifted straight out of the Jewish bible, almost word for word.

The Tanach (http://torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/bible.html)

Why the heck should I prove god doesn't exist? Believers are the ones stating there is something in the sky telling us how to live our lives. I think the burden of proof is on you, not me. I do know there is no god, and am fully convinced of that fact.

[phantomullet]

Jesus really had nothing much to do with the founding of the early church.

Yay, I'm back now. Uh, I don't know exactly what you meant by that because Jesus's followers based the church directly on his teachings and I don't know if you would call him a Jew because it was the Jews who killed him. As far as the talks about Catholicism, I think its wrong to say it is any worse than any other division of christianity. Obviously Catholics do not support child molestation, and those sick puppies were just that; sick individuals. Weird people have come from all denominations such as the extremists who bombed the abortion center and it would be wrong to say that Baptists support bombing abortion centers. Christians need to unite, not attack eachother.

[the_dude3]

Actually, they were the original christian church. The first pope is believed to be the apostle Peter. The time around 300 years later was just when it was accepted for the first time as the official church of the Roman Empire and recieved the name it is know as today.

Roman Catholicism (http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/roman_catholicism.html)

Jesus really had nothing much to do with the founding of the early church. If he did exist as written in the bible (and I'm not convinced he did, there is talk that the character of Jesus is a combination of the stories of several reformers/prophets living in the area around that time) then he was born, cirucumcised, lived and died a jew. Like Martain Luther much later on, Jesus was a reformer who wanted his own religion to shape up. The christian church has its own roots firmly in Judaism. I read somewhere that the first 24 books of the christian bible are lifted straight out of the Jewish bible, almost word for word.

The Tanach (http://torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/bible.html)

Why the heck should I prove god doesn't exist? Believers are the ones stating there is something in the sky telling us how to live our lives. I think the burden of proof is on you, not me. I do know there is no god, and am fully convinced of that fact.


Arkacia if you want historical evidence of Jesus's existence, try looking up the testimonies of Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Lucian, Philo, and Josephus. All of those guys have actually witnessed Christ and none of them were Christian.

Oh yeah and the Torah is actually supposed to be part of the Christian Bible. I don't know if you were saying it was or wasn't, but just to clarify that. God has always been God, infact Jesus was around even before he was born, just not in human form. So that's sort of how they tie together, along with the prophecies about Jesus in the Torah and things like that.