Separation of church and state

[Arkacia]

A lot of western countries declare that they have a secular government, and that the church has no say in the laws of the nation. I can't help but wonder if thats true though, and whether its even possible for a nation to truly have separation of church and state.
We have the French ban on conspicuous religious symbols in schools (includes Jewish skullcaps, large crosses, and Sikh turbans, as well as Muslim headscarves), which they are copping a lot of condemnation over. Then we have conservative governments who seem to make their policies around various issues of interest to the church (homosexual marriage, abortion etc).
Does separation of church and state exist, or is it just a nice dream?

[grazsrootz]

there will always be traces of church and state, its deeply rooted in our way of living and govt

[Arkacia]

Forgive a foreginers view, but it seems the current US govt, while declaring itself seperate from religion, is actually incorperating more and more religious elements into domestic policy.

Their stand on Gay rights and abortion are just two examples. I can't understand why the govt, of any country, needs to get involved, and challenge, who marries who, and what medical procedures a woman can access. The main reasons seem to be the very strong, mainly religion based opposition to both these issues.

[grazsrootz]

well yeah, we have a repub president, plus alot of old people vote and old people are very religious

[the_dude3]

Gay rights and abortion are the only two examples. If the U.S. government were truly a religious government, they would definitely try to ban pornagrophy and try to make certain things illegal or try to ban them completely like alcohol and sex before marriage, things like that. But wait, they aren't because look at our media, we have ads flying at us everyday talking about how sex before marriage is the greatest thing so buy condoms or whatever. Also look at the alcohol ads, you'd think that the U.S. government would try to ban that. I mean look at all of the accidents that happen year after year because of alcohol. What a great religious nation we are!!

But yeah I can kind of see how you say that because of what graz is saying but still not very many old people are religious, especially the ones with lots and lots o' money.

Yeah but if anything we are being led more and more from religion not getting deeper into it.

[Mick]

I think the reason for that Dude3, is the Gay rights and abortion are minority issues.
What I mean is that things like pornography, alcohol and sex before marriage are accepted by the majority of the population, well maybe not pornography:D. The government usually has to keep the majority happy to stay elected, at least that's what they are supposed to do. Religions are not under as much pressure, but they are all trying to expand and increase the number of members or believers.

Also you could just imagine if the government tried to ban alcohol, there would be another rum rebellion on a massive scale, whoever banned it would probably be burned at the stake by an angry mob.

Gay people and those wanting to have an abortion are a fairly small percentage of the population so the government probably feels they can keep the religious people happy on these issues and only upset a minority group in the process.

One thing though... just how small is this minority?
Surely the official figures would be wrong as many gay people may not reveal their orientation and there would be many "backyard" abortions that the government has no idea about.

[the_dude3]

Mick you are right about the alcohol thing because (if you know American history) just take a look at the prohibition amendment the gov. made in the 1920s. It was extremely hard to enforce it because so many people did it and smuggled it on such a large level which led to the repealing of the amendment later in the 1930s. So yeah...

Anyway the minority thing I think is also correct because well what representative, president or whatever has succeeded when they haven't supported the majority? None, right?

I know that the abortion part of your statement has not been satisfied with religion because the gov. has not issued a ban on abortion, or at least the U.S. gov hasn't.
But the majority of the people I know probably don't care about it in the U.S. because there are so many unwanted child births here and the U.S. is basically a secular nation.

I don't know exactly what statistics say about gay people and their numbers, but I know that there are a lot of people that support rights for them that aren't homosexual, so the majority probably would want to have gay rights.But the reason why the ban is being pushed so much is because we have lots of conservative reps rooting for stuff dealing with the church in our gov.

[Arkacia]

Gay rights and abortion are the only two examples. If the U.S. government were truly a religious government, they would definitely try to ban pornagrophy and try to make certain things illegal or try to ban them completely like alcohol and sex before marriage, things like that. But wait, they aren't because look at our media, we have ads flying at us everyday talking about how sex before marriage is the greatest thing so buy condoms or whatever. Also look at the alcohol ads, you'd think that the U.S. government would try to ban that. I mean look at all of the accidents that happen year after year because of alcohol. What a great religious nation we are!!

But yeah I can kind of see how you say that because of what graz is saying but still not very many old people are religious, especially the ones with lots and lots o' money.

Yeah but if anything we are being led more and more from religion not getting deeper into it. I never meant to say that the US government was turning religious, just that to an outsider like me, it seems to be taking religious elements more into consideration policy wise, and its stance on certain issues seem to be more aimed at the churches, than the American population as a whole :).

Heck, I would'nt slag the US off for that, and call them an outright religious government, considering what the Australian government is up to at the moment. Take a look at this link, and you'll see what I mean....

click here
(http://www.couriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,12436815%255E953,00.html)

[zaqhyb]

our government isn't about religion it is more about religious fredom and not being a threat to a person just because they are of a different religion.

[the_dude3]

zaqyhb is right and he has one of the points I was going to make. Anyway i don't know if the majority of the population is truly secular because Christianity is really starting to grow, so I wouldn't exactly say or at least imply that the majority of the U.S. is secular. It might be, but not by much if it is.

But yeah we do tend to aim towards religious subjects probably because our president is Christian (or supposedly, I wouldn't know) and conservative, which you know aims more toward morals and such.

By the way how is the Australian government doing? I'd like to know just out of curiosity...

[phantomullet]

Forgive a foreginers view, but it seems the current US govt, while declaring itself seperate from religion, is actually incorperating more and more religious elements into domestic policy.


I wouldn't really say that we are more and more. If anything, it is a lot less "Christian" now than in the past. When the constitution was first writted, it was actually way more of a Christian country. All of our laws and the government as a whole was and still is based upon Christian principals. Separation of church and state was mainly created so the U.S.A. wouldn't ever declare a national religion or force people to practice a religion. George Washington would roll over in his grave if he knew what was happening with all the marriage problems, abortion, and other issues. The Gay rights movement, if anything, would show how we have become less "Christian." Up until about 50 years ago, gay marriage wasn't even a big issue, most of the general population was against it.

[Arkacia]

I did'nt mean this thread to just focus on the US, and will accept some of the blame for it doing so :).

I was actually asking if anyone thinks its possible to have real separation of church and state anywhere, or is the church (any church, not just Christianity), and its principals just too deeply rooted to ever have that.

Personally, I believe that no matter how hard a government tries, it can't happen, because too much of a nations history, even in newer nations, is based on religion, or had its original origins in religious teachings, so true separation of church and state is impossible.

[ender1626]

The US government cant make thing like sex befor marriage and alcohol illegal because as far as i am concerened the seperation of church and state is a dream not a reality. The point of not making such things illegal is to keep up the illusion that it still exists.

[yarnellcg17]

The seperation of Church and State was a good idea at 1st..but that is only if it was for the purpose intended...

Fast foward now 25yrs later..

Look at some of the legislation that has evolved..how much of that was not done behind closed doors..

I'm a Republican..but am a middle of the road republican..not too conservative on issues..unless it about needless pork spending...

But there are alot of the Republican Party that relies on The Church and there are alot of the Church that relies on the Republican Party..

Look at some of the legislation that has evolved..how much of that was not done behind closed doors..

[JsWoman]

I think having the 2 seperated was originally a good idea, but, to an extent, I think it has gone overboard. I mean, what was wrong with that courthouse having the 10 commandments in there? It wasn't affecting the outcome of their cases. Oh, well. Just my opinion.

[yarnellcg17]

Bottom Line the 2 were to be seperate..don't see that today

[JsWoman]

No, you really, don't I suppose. Dunno what else to say.

[ender1626]

You still see it today as long as the issues in the news do not "concern" both. A good example would be how the athesist just won that case about the pledge of aledigence. No one cared untill someone brought it up.

[yarnellcg17]

The 10 commandments were and are still good for something..if one can remember and abide by honestly..Most just look at them and say they believe in em..but in turn still go against them without thinking.

[JsWoman]

It is the truth that they say they believe in the 10 commandments, and follow them, but not always the case. But, to each his own.

[yarnellcg17]

It is the truth that they say they believe in the 10 commandments, and follow them, but not always the case. But, to each his own.

Yeah..true it isn't always the case..I think when the 10 Commandments were removed from some courthouse..I think it was in part to seperate Gods Law from Mans Law..but I'm not sure on that honestly..but I think it would be a hypothetical in my opinion as to why it was..

[ender1626]

The 10 commandment are a little outdated in there wording. Dont get me worg, i still believe in them. It just seems that people in our society today dont have quite the understanding of them as they did in the old days.

[JsWoman]

It isn't so hard to understand the meaning of the 10 commandments. The wording might be outdated, but they should still be followed.

[yarnellcg17]

No they are not hard to understand..don't think they were ever meant to be hard..really easy to interpret.. although alot of the old bibles at one time were..I was glad when they came out with new versions that were broken down and help some in it's meanings. :angel2:

[JsWoman]

Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't think the 10 commandments are that difficult to understand or interpret.

[Arkacia]

Thats all true, but when push comes to shove, the 10 commandments really have no place in a government run place like a courthouse. I must admit to fully agreeing with taking them out. The alternative would be allowing symbols of religion from all those followed in the US to be displayed so Christianity didn't seem to be favoured :).

[ender1626]

I wouldnt call it favoring Christianity, its just that no other religion has ever said anything about posting any of there "commanddments" or anything like that anywhere. As far as the 10 commandments being had to interperet like i said its not that everyone doesnt understand them, just some people. Also it seems like its hard for people to apply things that are "outdated" to our society today. Just look at the constitution the government is always finding ways around it, but no one ever says anythng about it.

[JsWoman]

That's true about the constitution. Since the time that it was created, people have been finding ways to bend the rules of it and get away with it. But I don't see that as a viable reason to do the same with the Commandments. God isn't into bending the rules, and I doubt he would take that as an excuse.
As far as the commandments being taken out of the courthouse.. I know I said I didn't think it was hurting anything, and I still stand by that, but I do see why they found it neccesary to take them out.

[ender1626]

"It is a sad day in our country when the moral foundation of our law and the acknowledgment of God has to be hidden from public view to appease a federal judge," This is what Chief Justice Roy Moore said when they removed the 10 commandments frome the Alabama courthouse. I compleatly agree with what he said. As far as i am concerned the "world" has been pursicuting christians for a while now. That may sound harsh, but its in the bible that the christian population will be pursicuted and it has been happening.